Comments on: Does Size Matter? (Part 4)

By: Mike

Mike — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:07:22 +0000

Dear Friends one and all,
I find this discussion fascinating and, being a recently retired pastor (after 21 years to the same smallish congregation), I wanted to chime in. We are all insecure and in search of validation. That is, we want people to affirm that what we are doing is meaningful and significant. So we tend to enter these discussions with a subconscious agenda. I think that those who come from large churches promote large churches at the expense of small churches and visa versa. This is not a conscious thing but it is clearly there. I love small churches and I love mega-churches and I love everything in-between — as long as Christ is preached. That’s what Paul taught us to give thanks for. But please, may I ask you to promote your point of view without disparaging the others. Don’t say, “this is THE wave of the future for the church.” No one way is THE way. It is one way that God will use. But God will not ONLY use any one way. He uses ALL ways to reach lost people. Please don’t limit God by invalidating the things that God uses to reach people. And please don’t insult the Body of Christ by saying that other parts aren’t valid parts because they are different. “The hand cannot say to the foot, ‘because you are not a hand, you are not part of the body…’” Blessings on all!

By: Josh

Josh — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:36:11 +0000

Hey, as a church planter (we planted two years ago but are about to start two new services this year) your generosity and kingdom heart has in many regards enabled us to aim higher, to present the message in ways we would have struggled to do so.

4 Life,

Josh

LifeCity Church Tuggeranong and Canberra City

By: riddle

riddle — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:32:49 +0000

Tom,
Thanks for responding. Are you saying that the way Christ lived and the miracles he performed are separated from the gospel? You’d be in the minority if you think that. Also, John 6 is an interesting chapter to quote, in that after all the miracles he performed and the crowd is assembled he runs them all off. All but 12 and he calls one of them the devil. Reading John 6 gives you the impression that Jesus isn’t a big fan of crowds. Maybe he knows something we don’t.

I’d suggest that the weekend in Christ’s life, 3 years later maybe the cornerstone of the gospel, but it’s certainly not the whole gospel because it leaves out the way Christ lives. Christ wasn’t a bait and switch guy like you seem to allude, (win them with miracles then give them the gospel), what a small gospel that would be. What a small God that would be. Jesus’ life a living out of the gospel, even before the resurrection.
I’m not interested in a God who uses card tricks to attract people then sells them a product. that is not good news but it sounds like the american way.

By: Christian Haiku

Christian Haiku — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:43:17 +0000

One church, two church, red church, blue church

By: Ruth

Ruth — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:32:58 +0000

opps I can see I made a lot of typo’s in my post.

I’ve enjoyed this blog over the last year and have found many helpful things in it. However, I have a different view of this subject. First of all I believe that this series of post is unwittingly pitting churches that might be considered “small” against those that are considered big. I believe every church should have at its heart to grow and to reach out to the community. Instead of big churches with multiple sites acting as if they are “better” than other churches maybe they should look and see the good things that smaller churches are doing. God places people in the church….and guess what he places people in individual churches. Your business model of a Mom and Pop shop and a big store might be catchy…but God places people. Also all one has to do is read to realize that big business has their downfalls as well. Truthfully though I’ve grown to like lifechurch web site….if I were in your town and God set me in a church it wouldn’t matter if that church were smaller or larger than Life Church….What would matter would be…am I where God placed me. I’m disappointed in this series along with some of the comments which in my opinion promote prideful thinking and strife among small and large congregations. My husband and I pastor what some might consider a small church…and it offers what God has divinely given us for our community. We don’t compete with big or small churches in our city….rather we partner with them. Perhaps a better topic might be how to partner with and encourage other churches in your city.

By: Ruth

Ruth — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:24:58 +0000

I’ve enjoyed this blog over the last year and have found many helpful things in it. However, I have a different view of this subject. First of all I don’t believe that this series of post is unwittingly pitting churches that might be considered “small” against those that are considered big. I believe every church should have at it heart to grow and to reach out to the community. Instead of big churches with multi campuses acting as if they are “better” than other churches maybe they should look and see what the good things that smaller churches are doing. God places people in the church….and guess what he places people in individual churches. Your business model of a Mom and Pop shop might be catchy…but God places people. Truthfully though I’ve grown to like lifechurch web site….if I were in your town and God set me in a church it wouldn’t matter if that church were smaller or larger than Life Church….What would matter would be…am I where God placed me. I’m disappointed in this series along with the comments which in my opinion promote prideful thinking and strife among small and large congregations.

By: Barbara Quinlan

Barbara Quinlan — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:57:14 +0000

I grew up in a small church setting, around 300 or so and loved it. It was personal and everyone knew everyone. It was a community in itself. So i can appreciate a small setting. But I also know that some people prefer anonymity in a large church body. It is never truly about the size, after all, Jesus started His church with only 12! Now look how big His church is! We are the h2ochurch.tv house church, we hold church in our home following Craig and the internet campus. We are only about 10 now, but are looking forward to much growth. the question is do we continue to grow and become a campus or do we splinter off into new house churches to maintain the small group setting. I believe that each type and size fills a need in God’s kingdom work and speaks to many different people. It is like what the military does in war planning to strategically cover all basis. And after all, this is WAR! Thanks Craig!

By: Ken Eastburn

Ken Eastburn — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:33:14 +0000

Unfortunately, Craig, I cannot agree with you on this one. Attempting to bring people in on a non-consumerist reality by appealing to their consumerist tendencies is a bit like trying to put out a fire with a flame thrower.

As has been noted by previous commentors, Jesus didn’t allow his followers to continue walking in an old identity when he asked them to follow him. Several tried, mind you, and he essentially said, “pass.” (Luke 9:57-62)

There’s a line between meeting people where they are at and telling them that where they are at is fine. I fear that the whole best-of-both-worlds thing crosses that line.

By: Jenn Cady

Jenn Cady — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:34:01 +0000

Size of Church building CAN matter….It depends on who you are trying to reach. In Hendersonville, I have had SOOOOO many people ask when are we going to be in the NEW building..because that is when they will come visit. I invite them to our smaller campus but they are not used to thinking of going to “church” in an old strip mall as “CHURCH”. It boggles me and others because “CHURCH” is not a place…. but to most “size and building” matters.

By: Brandon Duff

Brandon Duff — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:31:54 +0000

Well said Tom.

By: Tom E. Snyder

Tom E. Snyder — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:59:19 +0000

riddle,
In John 6 it opens with many following Jesus because of His miracles. He performed another miracle to feed them all. Once there they received a strong gospel message, so much so that most of them went away for good.

The convenience that Craig talks about is a part of the attraction of hearers, not the gospel message. Would the crowds have come out to hear Jesus without the miracles? I don’t know. Will lost people come out today if it’s not convenient and comfortable? I don’t think so. Once they are there you don’t dilute the gospel you give it to them straight up–no chaser. THAT is what Craig does.

By: Dusty

Dusty — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:28:59 +0000

Sorry I meat to put this on the last post. This is from a pastor’s blog (Ty Bean) @ http://tybean.blogspot.com , that I think can bring some insight to the discussion.

Here is the area where most churches fail.
WHAT DO WE DO NOW THAT WE HAVE THEM?

Top 6 Things that Keep the Formerly Unchurched Active in the Church
(research conducted by Ranier)

1. 62% - Ministry Involvement
2. 55% - Sunday School
3. 54% - Obedience to God
4. 49% - Fellowship of Members
5. 38% - Pastor/Preaching
6. 14% - Worship Services

By: Dusty

Dusty — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:21:54 +0000

You know I think the most amazing thing about big churches is there are many departments (smallgroups/lifegroups, music, preaching,community outreach, youth. etc..) that act as a small business within a major coropration. No as a small church pastor (10 in attendance) I know our church serves right now as small business reaching a specific communtiy. But, my out look is this even Chik-fil’a started out small, now there are many Chik-fil’a’s. I pray that our church and many others realize how to be the Church and spread God’s franchise. We may be small but we don’t have to stay that way.

Craig thanks for the posts on church size this has really helped me put things in perspective for the vision God has for us.

By: riddle

riddle — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:12:58 +0000

ok. So I’m still struggling with this a bit. Thanks in advance for your patience with me.

Craig, I really like what you said about being about Jesus. To me, the church has to be about the things Jesus was about. Jesus’ agenda is our agenda. So here comes my struggle. I never see Jesus making these kinds of comparison toward convenience or efficiency. Loads of grace yes, but always with sacrifice. Isn’t that the nature of the gospel? It’s pretty common to talk about Passion these days. Young people love to talk about passion. there’s even a worship record label that uses the word. But passion isn’t about feeling it’s about sacrifice. If it doesn’t cost (not just $) me anything to attend a church. If it’s always convenient. If the sermons and music are pristine. If I can go from home online instead of with people, etc. Is that really the gospel? Can the gospel be dis-incarnate like that?
I know what this sounds like. and I’m not trying to put up barriers to people knowing Christ. not at all. I’m only really asking what kind of gospel we’re introducing them to. this isn’t a question about LC’s motivation, which I think is as pure as the next church’s. I’m asking the 50,000 ft question. God uses a lot of ways to change people for certain. But it seems Jesus never choose the easy, efficient, most self-serving option. I have a hard time thinking that Jesus would shop at Best Buy. hmmmm.

By: Brandon Duff

Brandon Duff — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:41:36 +0000

As a church that is part of the http://network.lifechurch.tv we have been able to experience some of the “large” church dynamic. We have access to top quality teaching and video elements and we have been able to sharpen other areas of our ministry simply because I have time to devote these areas. I have more time because I no longer have to devote time to message prep and series planning.

Every church needs to look at ways to partner. Small or large we can all accomplish more together. Our culture is programed for bigger and better. In order to gain their attention in this consumeristic culture we need to maximize what God has given us. What God has given your church is not yours, it’s His. Let’s use his blessings for the Kingdom

I am fairly confident that our level of partnership in our church will only increase in the years ahead. I believe this is a way that a smaller church can grow and reach it’s community. Eccl 3:12… A cord of three strands is not quickly broken. I hope one day we can be a campus of larger church, because I believe that is the future of the church.

By: Kyle T. Panter

Kyle T. Panter — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:49:54 +0000

One of the neatest experiences I’ve been enjoyoing lately is engaging people I normally wouldn’t or couldn’t even talk to via the LC internet campus chatroom. My wife and I are honored to serve and be served by the wonderful community of believers in our Life Group and local campus, but I have truly felt God’s guidance in a new way as I “chat” with total strangers - some halfway around the world - about God, His Word, and how He’s affecting my life and theirs. I’m reminded of Jesus’ words to the woman at the well when she asked him where was the proper place to worship God. His reply: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Jn 4:24. One of the most powerful impacts of a multi-site church, I feel, is the ability to simultaneously worship with and meet people from around the world and impact (and/or be impacted) their lives for Christ.

By: Craig

Craig — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:23:14 +0000

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your question. I’m writing mostly for ministers. (I don’t know if you are a pastor, or not.) In my mind, we are making the assumption that it is all about Jesus.

Unfortunately, to most people, it is not all about Him. Most come to church with a consumer mindset. I am trying to build discussion and understanding of how we can meet people where they are so we can introduce them to Jesus.

Blessings to you.

By: Steve Waite

Steve Waite — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:54:57 +0000

I must confess that all this talk about church size is going right over my head, Craig. Isn’t the point of Christianity to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and then become a loving brother or sister (that is, be the church)? Shouldn’t all of our discussions center around Jesus? After all, if Jesus isn’t present in a small church, how worthy is it? And likewise, if Jesus is present in a large church, why wouldn’t a disciple be drawn to it. It’s not about us - it’s all about Him!

By: Michael McLemore

Michael McLemore — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:46:05 +0000

A little over 12 months ago, I looked at buying a coffee house in Yukon; one as an investment but the second was that I wanted to pump in the LC experiences to a very under-churched Yukon/Mustang area.

I felt it was a way to reach those not otherwise willing to engage. It was shortly after that when the Internet campus was launched, which would have proved most useful.

Therefore, the smaller cell approach serves a real purpose, as a part of our ultimate vision.

Size doesn’t matter…guess it all depends on how many churches you’ve dated…

By: Kirk Longhofer

Kirk Longhofer — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:15:49 +0000

Craig… here you’ve hit the sweet spot of what I beleive is the wave of the future, both for the “mega” church… and even for the mainline denoms, if they’ll have the courage to adopt it.

Technology allows LifeChurch to be small where it counts, and at the same time deliver excellence in a big time way.

It’s about developing a customized experience for the user… Church 2.0!

kdl