Thoughts on Pastoral Preparation
More than classroom education, I’m a big believer in mentoring and discipleship. I’d love to see more seminaries or bible schools design programs that allow student pastors to minister and study simultaneously.
Although I see the value in what students learn in the classroom, I honestly believe that churches should take the lead role in preparing pastors. (This could also help eliminate some financial pressures that keep too many pastors from furthering their education.)
I can’t think of a better way to learn than serving under great men and women of God. Rather than three years in classrooms, I’d rather see students serving in a church while taking specialized classes.
Each pastor has such different developmental needs. Some need more time learning the basics of God’s word. Others are strong in the word, but have significant relational or leadership challenges. These are different needs that deserve different educational approaches.
Although no system is perfect, I prefer throwing gifted people into the ministry waters and helping them learn to swim rather than sending them to three years of classes to learn how to clean the pool, treat the water, and apply sunscreen.
I’m grateful for what God did in my life through seminary, but so much of the time (and money) invested doesn’t apply to what I do today. Just as I love seeing innovation in the church, I’d love to see innovation in the way we prepare pastors.
Thoughts?
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Thanks Ps Craig I agree with you wholeheartedly as there is a big difference between theory & practice. I am reading a great book at the moment called ” The Leadership Baton” by Rowland Forman, Jeff Jones & Bruce Miller.. the whole book is about the need for church based leadership training. Simply put, its being trained on the job with Jesus! Very challenging indeed for a smaller church as it means a whole lot more work but I suspect it is the way of future! Partnering with other training organizations who will help us train the saints up for the work of the ministry at home on the ground is becoming more & more essential! Any suggestions of places you know who will do this are greatly appreciated. Thanks for your leadership bless ya heaps Ps Kev
Craig: been reading all week and have been trying to wait to comment at one time. You summed up many of my thoughts in this post. I cannot and will not say that my college/seminary education was worthless. I learned a lot and benefited from it. but the real learning has taken place in the 35+ years since I graduated. From Sr Pastors to fellow worship pastors in other churches to fellow staff I have learned more than I could ever recount. I wish I had been more “teachable” when younger and more “mentoring” now that I am older. All in all I would say that seminary gave me 5% of where I am today while real ministry/life has given me 95%. This has been an interesting week of posts. Thanks.
That should read “fellow sr/youth pastors in other churches” (Never have been a worship pastor) Sorry.
I kind of find myself in the situation you are describing. I am in my 3rd year as a pastor and am in seminary through Liberty University’s Distance Learning. They have a program for full time pastors where they waive their tuition if the pastor’s church supports the LBF, their church planting mission. So my financial obligation is $200 per semester + books for as many hours as I can take. The great thing about doing seminary this way is I can tailor the classes I take to the needs I have in ministry. Obviously, some are inflexible, but as far as electives, I generally take classes that meet the ministry needs I know I have. The downside to doing seminary this way is it makes the church, family, school balance that much harder, and at times adds much stress to an already stressful profession.
I worked in a multi pastoral setting for 8 years right after seminary and I must say that I loved the training and discipleship that happened there. It would have been great to do it at the same time. Now as a solo pastor I am working on finding a mentor close by who can help me and disciple me along the way. I look forward to the day when I can do it in return. Thanks for the post.
Great thought, agree, agree, agree. We, Celebration, Austin, Tx, are starting this type of training under the leadership of Johnathan Bowles. I learned Pastoral Ministry under this method. It has served me well for 30 plus years. I always seek to pour myself into someone else. The other side of training is the administrative, which has killed many budding churches. ARC ministries does a great job of helping in this area. Oh that it was around when I was pioneering churches “back in the day”.
Totally agree…my husband has been turned down from two jobs as an Executive Pastor because he does not have education for an Accridited College only an unaccridited one…and his resume is amazing. Don’t understand how 16 yrs on the job experience is not better than 4 yrs in a book???
When I graduated from Bible College, I thought, “there has to be a better system”. One thing I have often dreamed about was a group of select churches that worked as a unit to provide training for people who are interested in the ministry. Spend 6 months with a pastor who is an amazing teacher - learning from them, spend 6 months with a guy who is an amazing leader of teams and groups and knows how to administrate - 6 months with the relational guy. Not nearly as feasible for people with families, but I think it would be nice to taylor a students needs by the type of leader they are joined with. Anyway, that’s my idea…
Craig, I really like this post, it gets to me.
I’ve felt a call on my life to enter full time ministry for several years. That I need to spending my days in a pastoral capacity of some sort other than in the “rest of the workforce” for lack of a better phrase.
I have been unable to do this due to my inability to attend seminary…for many reasons. A part of me refuses to believe that God is pleased with the elaborate system of hoops that modern MDiV education has become, and of course there is the financial aspect.
That system you describe really screams to me as a better way. It certainly seems more….well…”biblical” than our current system as well.
I can’t imagine the feelings of joy, fulfillment, faithfulness and accomplishment that someone like me would receive from being involved in yours or a similar program.
Thank you for your constant innovation and desire to conform our practices/procedures to more fit God’s heart for us, and not the other way around.
My Thought…BINGO!
I was mentored “on the job” by my pastor for 7 years. Great experience. I think this a great way to train pastors. In addition I have done some specific leadership training to complement the “on the job”. I am now a lead pastor of a 2 year old church.
Hey Craig,
We’ve actually developed a branch campus of a credited Bible School (Life Christian University) in our church. We’re in our 4th year right now and it’s been amazing for all of the students to be able to go through Bible School while serving in the areas they are interested at our church.
It’s one of the best ways I’ve seen to develop the body of Christ to get trained in the Word and get hands on ministry experience.
Great post. I hope that people take you serious on this. I am trying to do the seminary thing, but i know that I can become someone who sits at a desk and doesn’t serve in the community. I want to learn from as many people as possible and I think working under a great leader can be a seminary type experience. Now if the great leaders would put their money where their mouth is and hire some young guys we could get this ball rolling.
Wrote this comment on your other post on “What I Didn’t Learn from Seminary”.
I’m a a strong advocate of an integration of theological education and ministry experience. I spent 9 months in internship, and later, 1 year in ministry before going to seminary. Even then, I felt I could have spent more time in ministry, as this gave me a deeper and more mature/realistic outlook as I went through my studies. Also I went in later, e.g. when I was 27-30. As opposed to some of my younger classmates, in their early or mid-20s, with little or no ministry experience, you could tell that they had a fresh, raw, idealistic approach, which isn’t all bad, but I know some did struggle even after graduation and facing the “real world”, even in the church.
Sadly also, mentoring and coaching was not something taught or modeled well in seminary, save 1 or 2 self-initiated friendships with more pastoral professors.
That is how Jesus did it.
I didn’t start seminary until I’d been in ministry for a number of years. I kind of did a yes/and approach… yes, I did seminary, and yes, I served in ministry at the same time. Kind of a hybrid approach but I loved it and am working on a 2nd master’s degree now. I started the journey asking God to help me keep it devotional in nature and practical, and I’ve been amazed at how relevant the classes I have taken were to the exact place in ministry I was in. I’ve learned so much and I certainly don’t regret it.
It really grieves me that so many lament their theological education… I know some have had a bad experience and I think many went in for perhaps the wrong reasons (advancement, to get certain jobs, etc) but I know many who have encountered Jesus in a fresh way there, have sharpened their skills, and still are what I would consider “cool” people :)
I think the landscape of theological education is changing. No one approach is the “right” one. I think we have to lean in and hear the voice of God and have the courage to respond when He speaks.
I’ve really appreciated the discussion this week, thanks for sharing everyone!
This is exactly what Bethel Seminary does, and the exact reason I am attending Bethel while serving and learning at Elevation Church in Charlotte.
Craig -
As the president of a seminary, I’m in agreement with you–and most of the comments. Seminary is about (or should be about) helping men and women to take new steps (spiritually, relationally, academically, etc.) in their relationship to Christ and to Christ’s calling in their lives. Traditional models of theological education have fallen short of this vision for a very, very long time. There are church communities who are doing a great job in the continuing discipleship of all members in the community (whether on “staff” or not) and helping them to take new steps daily in their growing relationship with the Triune God, with the Body of Christ, and with the work of Christ in the world. Even the best of these churches can seldom do it all. So partnership with seminaries who understand the larger vision and call can be very useful. We’re thinking and talking about all these issues at our seminary. I’m so grateful to be working with a theological faculty who sees their role in light of the larger picture–and grateful for the vision that pours to us through churches like yours. — Steve Hayner, President, Columbia Theological Seminary
I can see it now…Life U! Get Bobby on that right now. Utilizing technology to give a practical real life seminary right in your own living room.
This is exactly what my pastor is doing with the training ministry @ Austin Bible Church. He sees the benefit of studying at a seminary, but still think it’s best (and the biblical model) for a person to train in their local church, if the church is equipped to do so. It’s definitely been of benefit for me since attending that church for a few reasons: 1) it’s allowing me to train my spiritual gift, 2) i get the opportunity to minister and teach the Bible, 3) others get to attest to my giftedness, as opposed to simply having a paper that says I’ve learned the academics (which isn’t a bad thing), 4) it allows others in the congregation to share/use their gift (i.e. there’s a man in our church that is ordained & seminary trained who is teaching our Hebrew class) and 5) I’m getting real world/ministry experience through all of this.
I definitely think it’s something that more churches should be doing. I know that it’s something I’m going to implement if/when the Lord allows me to finish my training & get ordained and subsequently pastor a church.
lj.
I could not agree with you more! I always felt that seminary prepared me to be more of a theologian and not a pastor. More time was spent on none pastoral things then on the pastoral.
Orthodoxy of the olden days saw students gathered around their bishop learning and serving. I think we need more of this and not less.
Just some thoughts.
Have you ever heard of a Master’s Commission? This is a ministry training program that incorporates hands-on training in ministry with Biblical studies. This type of program varies from church-to-church since it is directed by a local church and their pastoral team. This kind of ministry training is very well balanced because it gives you the solid Biblical teaching that is needed in the ministry as well as gives you a passion for God and the ability to see how to apply what you are learning in your books in a practical way. The Biblical studies are usually done through an online, self-study program that many Christian universities have. The Assemblies of God offers credentials to students who have completed their Biblical studies requirements through programs such as these. This is a good (and many times cheaper) alternative to a traditional seminary.
My wife and I recently started directing a school like this at The Church at Chapel Hill in Douglasville, Georgia. it is called “Fulfill the Call School of Ministry” and we have a passion to raise up pastors, missionaries, and other ministers who are passionate about God and want to be discipled. We do not have a website up and running yet, but you can find out more by visiting the “Schools” page on our church’s website: http://www.churchatchapelhill.com.
I think this is a model that more churches should begin to use to train young people to become ministers right from their local church. It is healthy for pastors to be trained IN the church and not in an environment that is separate from the church.
As a recent seminary grad myself, I was greatful for the stuff I got from seminary but still feel that I am woefully unprepaired for ministry. It seems that the only position we were educated in was teaching and there is so much more to ministry. I would love to see churches partner more with seminaries to give students practical experience and start to expand the other areas of ministry that seminary does not train us in.
I couldn’t agree more Craig. I was recently admitted to a semianry in Kentucky, but with my current salary from my church cannot afford to pay out of pocket and did not believe more debt was how God would have me move forward. I am happy to see churches with more resources willing to invite young people in to train them up. Some great examples have been given already and I’ll add another. Mars Hill opened up their one year Master’s course program this year.http://theresurgence.com/retrain
I hope to be able to take part of some training that not only prepares me for the practical side of ministry but gives me more knowledge on how to faithfully, exegetically proclaim the Word. I love being able to get ministry experience as a 24 year old, but find it hard for churches to trust me to take on more responsibility without formal training, so I hope God blesses me with an opportunity sooner than later! :)
As someone who worked full time at a church while going to seminary, I am a believer in seminary and church work being an important both/and. I am a better minister because I received seminary training, and I was a better student because I had a place to apply what I was learning. There are things I learned in seminary that my church could not have taught me, and there are things I learned “in the trenches” that could not be replicated in the classroom.
Love these thoughts Craig! I’m currently enrolled in a Seminary in the town I currently minister and there is great innovation that needs to take place along these lines. However, my undergrad experience was amazing. I was a Contemporary Christian Ministries major at Fresno Pacific University and the entire program balanced the need for absorbing great knowledge, but also working within the local church and putting to practice and testing what you were learning. There were also class sessions we had on performing weddings, funerals, marriage counseling etc… You may want to check it out.
I wonder if you have ever seen BILD’s paradigm papers and materials! They focus on “Church-based Theological Education” and they’ve been doing it for years and gaining immense traction in developing countries, where the need for trained leaders far surpasses the current personnel and time availability.
Take a look: http://bild.org/philosophy/ParadigmPapers.htm
Hope you find that useful. :)
As a new Student via online learning through Asbury Sseminary this fall, (in just a few more weeks); I was pleasently surprised when I received an email for the introduction material on Asbury’s Christian Formation Program. It is based around there 6 core values, and addresses many of the issues raised in the post and replies. You are set up with a falculty or staff guide who you will report to and share a portfolio of your growth, accountability, and the different opportunites and different cultural and spiritual situations that have co-insided with your academic learning. I don’t know if other seminaries do this, or if it’s a standard practice, but I was impressed with the standards and scales they use in implimenting your progress and seeing how your academics and real life encounters co-exist and either work together or against one another, as well as your spiritual growth.
Craig this is totally what I am all about! I mentioned in an earlier comment that I struggled to do my study by distance so i could stay in ministry at my local church. The problem for me now is that I cant get a FT min job simply because I did it that way! 10 yrs of ministy expereince in youth and worship seems to go nowhere here in Australia… I have a passion to serve God, have expereince and study to support it yet am struggling to find a church home where I can serve.
I am totally for training where you are at… i think churches need to shift their thinking to allow people to have a more practical education under great biblical leaders. My fear is that too many churches are holding to tightly to the ‘past’ and are losing great young ministers becasue of it…
I’d appreciate prayer for me and my family as we seek God for a local church home… Cheers!
I’d love to see innovation in the seminaries. Theological education is a must. So is admin education.
Awesome!!! thats all I can say to that… My heart is with you there
For those of you who got ministry positions that required the MDiv: did they inquire about what you learned or was the degree simply a proxy?
I absolutely love what your saying here. I’m in my fourth year of college studying youth ministry, and I feel like the majority of my education comes from serving in the local church. What happens in the classroom has no value unless I’m out in the world ministering to people alongside my local church. I’m blessed to get to work with amazing leaders at my campus who pour into me and allow me to have tons of hands-on experience in ministry. Between what I do at my school and my church, I feel like God is preparing me for ministry. I wouldn’t have it any other way!
the upside of resources at the seminary (specialized training, top-rate scholarship, hopefully a healthy stable of or network with top practitioners, etc) is a high-value good, but more and more I agree with your take — creating an intentional apprentice approach to run alongside seminary-level instruction and purposeful growth would be optimum.
As an intern, I learned more working on the job for 90 days than I did in the 4, ok 5 years in college.
OJT is always a good idea!
I am a church planter in North Philadelphia. Going on my 3rd year as a Pastor. I was never the classroom type. I won’t knock the academic approach to going into ministry but from my observations I have found that there many aspects of the ministry that cannot be dissected in the classroom. Two major aspects that make or break the ministry leader is…
-How to handle and resolve conflict.
-Personal accountability.
When it comes to dealing with hard core problems. The uniqueness of individuals, culture and situations are so various this would be an ever changing curriculum and techniques. Of course it will be biblically based just individually appropriate. Conflict resolution needs to be taught at the ground level of ministry that way the heart of the leader is understood when distributing discipline and/or counsel.
How about personal accountability for the Pastor? The importance of this can be taught in the classroom but when it’s game time the fundamentals are usually discarded as we default survival mode. The intangible virtues of a great leader are better caught then taught. I was fortunate to be entrusted with ministry within the greater church. My stewardship of ministry was held accountable as I was. This approach revealed qualities about me that either gained recognition or further spiritual tweaking. All that to say I am for information but within the context of situations that set us up for impartation.
I’m reading some great thoughts of others here that I really appreciate. I hope I add value to the conversation.
I totally agree! Going through the last stages of seminary now while serving in a local church, and talking to guys who have just finished, we are all stunned by how much irrelevent material we are being taught, and how little real preparation we are getting for ministry. This isn’t to downplay Seminary in the slightest, as I beleive both classroom and real-world preparation are necessary for a minister, but we definetely need the real world element. The ministry I work for calls these sorts of activities “Hand-Off” activities. We give youth with leadership talent the opportunity to learn leadership skills and put them to practice with our “Hand-Off” projects. I think these youth will be miles ahead of classroom-only trained students as they assume leadership in the near future.
While I agree that some aspects of seminary were more helpful that others. I have found myself wishing I could go back and re-take some classes.
It would be nice if some of the comments would list the “irrelevant” stuff they are learning. Then go into ministry and see if the list is still true. It smacks of the teenager who says, Why do I need algebra I will never use it, only to be denied a job because they can’t do advanced math.
I think much of what seminary does is to prepare you for things that you can not possible imagine. If you never learn how to think theologically how will you ever learn to evaluate books, curriculum, or even your own sermons. I have heard so pretty shallow, consumer-driven pop-psychology talks that masqueraded as sermons in churches that dismiss theological training.
I am very glad for my seminary training and I wish some of those on my staff had more formal theological training.
I’ve only been out of college for 3 yeas and I totally wish I would have had that one-on-one opportunity with other youth pastors that have been recently in the game! Everyday I think about the things I learned from Bible College and A LOT of it really did not prepare me for everyday ministry… it seemed a little to “easy” when I was at school.
I understand that the professors obviously could not prepare me for everything but at least give me some of the negatives that may take place along with all of the positives. Don’t get me wrong my college experience was awesome, it just seemed to have this falsehood about some of the courses!? I have been thinking about what it would look like for me to go back into that setting as a Prof. and really talk to these young/inexperienced students about church life in youth ministry. Just my thoughts!
P.S. I attended North Central University
(GREAT SCHOOL!!!)
Loved the post! I am currently a year out of finishing my undergraduate at a Christian University, with intentions on going further in my education in seminary. I always wished that there was program in place at a church to get solid biblical training, for the ministry I was about dive into. I am an intern at a recent church plant, where I feel I am not being utilized, or even wanted at times, and it becomes very frustrating, because I am ready and willing to be used in every way that God wants to use me here. I want to learn and experience everything I can so that I can communicate to change lives, and minister to people in the most effective manner.
I agree. I’m called to pastor, yet I feel that seminary is okay, but the spirit of God calling and me moving is what will prove me to the people I serve.
I am looking was looking into attending a seminary. So I of course looked into the leadership here at Livechurch.tv. I was just hoping to get some recommendations for a good online program (I am currently serving in the military), and Unitarian Universalism. The reason I am asking about the latter is that Phillips Theological Seminary seems to be associated with Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations.
I would also say that I appreciate Livechurch and how God is ministering through this program.
Thank you for your time.
Mike