Thank you for your great leadership and pastoring which actually does teach me like I’m in class! I DO take notes, too :)

LOL I used to take individual notes on your message construction, vocal delivery, body-language, and etc., listening multiples times (each time for a specific reason). I want to start doing it again! (So, I will!)

It integrates theology/bible and practice. It is focused on application in your local church. so much so that you actually have to be at least part-time in ministry to even do the program. It really is like nothing else that is out there.

I hope you at least check it out. http://wesley.indwes.edu Keep us in your prayers as we try to keep focused on our mission of make effective pastors to build the kingdom.

Russ G.
Wesley Seminary at Indiana Wesleyan University

First time here. I come from a fellowship of churches that do not require any seminary training, in fact all of the pastoral training is done in-house (i.e. their local church). The things you mentioned and RG, we get lots of that sort of training and experience.

One of the drawbacks is a lack of biblical training, which in the church that I attend has been addressed by the addition of a Bible Institute.

I think that seminaries are needed, just not sure if they are needed for Pastors. We need people to learn the sort of stuff they learn at seminary in order to assist the church with commentaries, bible translations, etc. Where would be without them? But I think that taking pastoral training out of the local church has been a big mistake.

In all fairness, you are correct in the need to read your other posts. At the time, I had rec’d a fw of your blog post from a concerned collegue.

I appreciate your words about what you DID learn through the experience.

Here is my concern:
I have great admiration for you and the ministry in which you are serving our Lord. In fact, I love your book ‘IT’ and bought it for my entire staff. I am very sensitive concerning the seminary experience. It seems that the prevalence of down playing the seminary experience is becoming increasingly more common today. For example, Steve Sjogren in his book ‘Irresistible Evangelism’ down plays his (albeit brief) seminary experience. I heard Carey Casey (National Center of Fathering) mention his experience in jest as ‘cemetary’.

Imagine if you will, someone you admire, begin to seemingly speak poorly of seminary and continue adding links to the ball and chain of weighing down seminaries and the great role that they play for preparing ministers today. That stirring emotion desired to respond.

Again, I mean no disrespect. In the items that you posted, they were more pragmatic in nature to church life. Therefore, giving the appearance, that seminary does not prepare one for the practical side of ministry, and thus creating an oxymoron of which the conclusion would bear someone to ask - should I go to seminary now?

Our Father in Heaven is blessing your ministry. You have a voice. I celebrate and praise God for what He is doing in and through LifeChurch.

I just needed to share my thoughts and appreciate you time. I am open to continued dialogue if you wish.

Seminary is a well - a well to draw from for the rest of your life - NOT to teach you everything that you may run into.

In regards to the statements listed:
§ Believe it or not, I never had a class on how to do a wedding or funeral. - I’m sorry for your loss. I took a supervised ministry class that taught me these things as well as a funeral for a Christian and one for a non Christian, Lord’s Supper, baptism, graveside services, different styles of weddings, etc. We even created a book to use a reference for ministry (which has come in handy)

§ We never looked at how to manage a budget, lead a board meeting, recruit volunteers, raise money, hire and fire staff, or design church facilities. - some of these items I learned through the class Educational Administration. Some churches utilize others in the congregation (our constituents) to do these things. Why do you think you have to doand learn it all? Again, what classes DID you take - what was your degree? NOT all seminaries are equal. Sorry for your supposedly sucky seminary experience. We are prepped as ministers to the people, not to do everything for the people.

§ I only took one class on preaching. In my opinion, we should have been required to take at least three if we were hoping to be a senior pastor. - We took a year’s worth plus I spent some of my electives on preaching because I knew that being a pastor was part of God’s design for me. I took the onus upon myself to utilize the resources available at the seminary - not just the classes to get by. I was proactive in my seminary education.

§ We didn’t study any thoughts on kids’ ministry, student ministry, missions, or small groups. - I had this in my educational adminstration class. Albeit an introduction, but one nonetheless. AND, I learned the resources available to find the information I needed. I learned to work with others, how to find resources, and ulitize those resources. C’mon - you have to admit that change is so fast today that once a person finished their school experience, new insights would have been discovered. Understanding how to mine those insights was important to know what resources are available.

§ Although my time in seminary predated the need, I think all schools today should teach pastors how to leverage technology in the church. - I took a computers in education class. YET, utilizing volunteers and their creativity is critical for this. Why do we feel the need for seminaries to teach us everything about church life. Yes technology is cool - AND importantly useful for ministry today. But after the fact of your education - are you not utilizing it now? Don’t place your previous experience upon present day circumstances. Has your school updated? Some have - some haven’t. PLUS - again - what about garnering the insight from your volunteers? Think of how excited they would be to bring their technology passion to the table of ministry.

It is like asking a basketball player to know how to manage the team, run the books, and organize the ticket sales as well as the salaries, etc. The basketball player was hired to play a specific position and practiced and developed those skills for THAT position. The seminary graduate is a member of a team of God given individuals of whom the pastor is the spiritual leader and shepherd. The student obtains the insight and education as to serve as a springboard in the most important arena - the God-centered arena. For without that God-centered focus, all the rest is dung. Yes, there are gaps - every educational degree has gaps. YET, there are resources available to help fill in the gaps (Willow Creek’s Leadership Summit for example). The focus for the pastor is to develop the spiritual relationship with Christ and garner the tools to help in that relationship.

Stop whining about what you DIDN’T get and celebrate what you DID receive - an education from Godly men and women who serve a community of believers who gave their blood, sweat, tears, and hard earned money to provide you the education that you received. What are you making of your education?

PLUS - your education should not have stopped at seminary. As leaders and pastors, we are lifelong learners. As spiritual leaders, we learned and delved into the riches of God’s Word. We can read Peter Drucker’s material later. Seminary is to learn the deep things of God and PREPARE for ministry. Preparation does not necessarily mean that you have everything you need. It is to teach you how to fish - not give it to you.

I apologize for the strong tone in this post. It is not my intent to be rude or crass - just direct. I am very passionate about the seminary experience. Feel free to email me with your thoughts if you wish.

We had a good mix of language (2 x 3 credit Greek, 1 x 3 credit Functional Hebrew), exegesis (x2), homiletics (x2), systematic theology (x3), biblical theology (OT/NT, x6), church history (x2), and more emphasis on pastoral/practical theology, which included:
- pastoral counselling
- emotional health of a pastor
- ministry & spirituality
- pastoral theology & ministry (including basic discussions on conducting weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc)
- leadership & management
- change & conflict
- growing a healthy church
- teaching-learning process (including use of technology)
- apologetics

What we didn’t cover (but then again, how much can you squeeze into a 3-year, 96 credit course?)
- Christian ethics (this was due to a lack of lecturer, we did apologetics instead)
- specialized ministries e.g. children, youth (offered under M.A. Christian Education, or M.A. Pastoral Counselling)
- administration (what Craig mentioned, about year-plans, budget, running meetings, church building, etc)
- mentoring & coaching

Also, I’m a a strong advocate of an integration of theological education and ministry experience. I spent 9 months in internship, and later, 1 year in ministry before going to seminary. Even then, I felt I could have spent more time in ministry, as this gave me a deeper and more mature/realistic outlook as I went through my studies. Also I went in later, e.g. when I was 27-30. As opposed to some of my younger classmates, in their early or mid-20s, with little or no ministry experience, you could tell that they had a fresh, raw, idealistic approach, which isn’t all bad, but I know some did struggle even after graduation and facing the “real world”, even in the church.

Graduate school for me learned about counseling and practically applying and seeing people’s sins from a biblical God/sin relationship (against Psychology,etc). That is practical.

The hard thing is, is that some of these schools are privately funded and those who fund it drive the style of education. If these are driven by older men of the faith who believe their ways were the key to growth, then that’s what’s going to be taught. How many churches of non-traditionalism fund schools in order to influence for future working men and woman?

1) Anything about preaching. I took the Biblical Languages route & wasn’t required to take any preaching courses.
2) No courses in worship, ethics, problem-solving, counseling, dealing with boards, toxic people, ad infinitum. ;-)

Blessings,
MB

I agree though, a few more additions to that lineup would be nice! They’re fairly new, so I think the focus is on a base set of classes well done, hone their approach, make it through accredidation, then broaden the program and probably a PhD or D.Theol. degree.

On the plus side, in all lists people are giving on what they did not learn in seminary, much of the items are well covered in their core and elective line-up. To me the fact that a legit 100% online option is available is great and I hope that this will pave the way for a great emphasis across the board to help people already in ministry improve their foundation and skills where they are at. - Larry

What they have not taught to talked much about is networking with other churches, which I think is a very valuable thing out in the trenches.

My opportunity came in 2004 when I helped design a new seminary from scratch. Our approach? We identified 35 ministry competencies important for ministry in the 21st century- we use them to guide student assessment, shape learning in each course, and determine student project focus. Ministry relevance is no longer an issue.

Sam Simmons, cofounder & learning designer
Rockbridge Seminary

That is why I’ve worked hard to do all my study by distance while i’ve been actively involved/working at a church so that i can get the balance i need and learn both aspects to ministry. I think we need to think more about making this happen in our churches, because i feel the current model sets a lot of people up to fail as soon as they leave study and hit the ‘real world’. I know of a lot of people who have simply ‘disappeard’ from church after leaving bible college with their qualifications…