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Avoid Failing Fatally
Some failures are more costly than others.
- Many ministries can survive a Christmas pageant that flops, a poorly attended mission trip, or ugly youth room.
- Few ministries thrive during a moral failure or a financial scandal.
Most pastors don’t go into ministry thinking, “One day, I hope to have an affair…” or “This is a great way for me to take money…”
Yet it is not uncommon for good people to end up in really bad places.
A wise pastor sets up safeguards to keep from failing fatally.
Here are a few things we do:
- I never travel overnight alone.
- All my internet activity is monitored.
- We block television stations with bad shows.
- We have the highest governing standards for financial accountability.
- I am never alone with a woman.
It is not that I am afraid of failing big. It is just that I want to make certain I never even have the opportunity to fail fatally.
What safeguards do you have in place to keep from failing fatally?
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Craig, thanks. This is a much needed word. I can remember the pain seeing my pastor fall to moral failure. I was recently married, got my first ministry job as a youth pastor and then the bomb dropped. I can remember feeling betrayed, angry, and hurt. However, God showed me first hand the devastating effects of moral failure. The church still has not recovered and that was about 11 years ago. Since then, I have adopted similar guidelines which I think every pastor needs to have. One more thing though. When I became the Pastor of my current church, I had a window put in my office door. That got everyone’s attention and sent the message that I was going to be transparent and had nothing to hide. Thanks for the blog. I’m very encouraged reading them.
I have all the standards that you have except the internet being monitored. Although our network admin has the ability to check on what ever we do there is no active monitoring system. Neither do we have something at home. What kind of monitoring system do you use.
Matt, I have used Covenant Eyes for years. I have heard xxxchurch’s system is good as well.
Craig,
Got a question. I do meet with women one on one in public places, if absolutely necessary.
When I do this:
I tell my wife where I’m meeting, the time I’m meeting and with whom. I ask my wife to call at a certain time so that I can interrupt the meeting saying “this is my wife I need to take the call” (this helps me end meetings that are going too long and also sends a message that she is #1.) I put my guard up to ensure that I send a message of professionalism (I guess this could be interpreted as being some what distant, but so be it).
I know that meeting in public could open me up to rumors, but I feel like it protects me from greater rumors or temptation that would come in a private setting. To be honest I would feel so uncomfortable meeting in my office that I can’t imagine this is in the first place.
Do you think I’m making a mistake, even in a smaller church (smaller target so to speak), to meet in public with a women?
Brandon, I have been criticized for my stance on this, but I simply don’t do it. You might consider meeting with another person with you. I don’t want to sound legalistic or overly cautious, but this is a risk I simply won’t take. (BTW, no pastor is a small target.)
I’d love to hear from some other pastors how they handle this.
I think that the “no meeting with women alone” standard is a good one, and it is also very hard to do for small church staffs. When I was on a staff of 15 it was not that hard to have someone with me if I needed to meet with one of our female leaders. But, just a couple weeks ago I had a youth leader stop by my office and we talked for about 15 minutes before I even realized that we were the only two people in the church. I was the only one in the office at the time and she got their early for the youth meeting.
As I think about it, if we were going to stick to this standard in our small setting it would need to be something that we publicized and then I would need help from others (IE when you leave me alone in the church lock the door behind you) in order to follow through.
In general I believe it is easier to make a commitment and stick to it than to have a commitment with a long list of exceptions. “I don’t meet with women alone” is easy to understand, “I don’t meet with women alone unless situation a, b, c, or d occur” gets a little more cloudy and loses some effectiveness in the long run. I also find that living with exceptions actually makes you more of a target to critisicm than living with strong convictions. People might not like your conviction, but at least they don’t feel like you are making special exceptions just to avoid them.
In an era where quite a few pastors believe they are above being questioned, it is refreshing to know that you strive to keep yourself from evil and also from the APPEARANCE of evil. All of us could learn from your example Craig. Thank you for sharing.
no real comment. i just want to say good stuff. i pray you continue with these steps to assure no mishaps. thanks for sharing this.
VERY WISE
[...] Here is what Craig said he does. [...]
Brandon, I’m with Craig on this one. I’d rather risk offending someone because of my accountability policy than damaging their reputation and my credibility. Find a woman counselor in town and refer ladies to her. It may be difficult with the size staff you have but it’s well worth it.
My in-person has recently dealt with this issue. It’s been so hard to watch, and the ramifications have been far-reaching and rather hurtful.
I think the no-meeting-alone policy is absolutely necessary and must also include staff members with one another, no matter how close the friendship. Too many opportunities for rumor and more.
I’m at a smaller church as well. But I simply won’t meet with a woman alone. Either my wife, a deacon, or someone else has to be there. I will meet with them in my office (door open) and if the secretary is here. But I will only meet with them one time. If further counsel is needed, another woman must be involved (I often suggest my wife) or I can refer them to a biblical counselor.
No matter what. You will most likely face some criticism for your stance. I recently found out that a disgruntled member (now former member) was slandering me by “wondering” and being “concerned” that I was addicted to pornography. The reason? I had shared in a sermon a while back about safeguards you need to put in place. I gave several personal examples (as Craig did in this post) and one of them was in reference to the internet monitoring system. I used Covenant Eyes for years as well and now use xwatch. Instead of seeing that as a wise thing, she began to question others about why I had to have such a thing and would ask my secretary questions like “does he always have his door closed when he studies?” It was angering and disheartening to find out. It reminds me of a quote I heard from Pastor Alistair Beig, “There is no proclomation without misrepresentation.” If you are going to teach it and preach. Someone is going to misuse it. But you have to do it anyway.
I have just signed up with Covenant Eyes this past week. It is great. I also want to mention that it took my accountability partners a few days to sign up and covenant eyes called me at home to let me know they had yet to sign up as my accountability partners. I really appreciate that. I also appreciate the swerve blog, Craig. I find it very beneficial as a pastor. Thanks.
Great conversation here. I’m just getting into ministry as a 40’s single mom as part of a new church plant. Right now there is the lead pastor (male) and myself on staff. We are never in a car alone, never alone anywhere, etc–we even make accommodations because our office is in his house (if his wife is not home, one of us leaves).
The “gray” area came up this past weekend when I was asked to drive with a 22yr old ministry intern from another church to a class together. (him–22yo black urban “kid”, me–40+yo white female mother) Although my lead pastor supported and encouraged the decision not to ride together, we were heavily criticized by other lead pastors as “making a big deal out of nothing” and being very legalistic.
What made my decision was the “worst case scenario” thoughts–if I choose for him not to ride with me, some people get a little angry and I’m perceived as “extreme”. However, if he rides with me–though extremely unlikely, my entire reputation and the reputation of my church could be damaged/destroyed. That made the decision to drive 2 cars very easy…
Transparency is important to pastors. Meeting with a woman should always be a transparent act. I’d have my wife attend the meeting as well; she could have spiritual insight, being a woman herself, that may be beneficial in the meeting. If privacy is an issue in the meeting, having a glass (transparent) door in the office and several windows is very wise. This is difficult for mothers, but an option. It goes without being said, but I never travel alone with a woman, across town, to church, or out to eat. That presents an opportunity for bad appearances.
A similar example: Before cell phones were around, my sunday school teacher in high school stopped at a liquor store to make a personal phone call at a pay phone outside the store, . (he’s an architect and had to resolve an issue at a job site) The result was the wrong image being portrayed to the community and the student who brought it to his attention that he was at a liquor store. (not to go into the alcohol debate- his stance was since he worked extensively with the church youth and law forbid them from drinking, he voluntarily abstained from alcohol to better relate to the youth) We don’t need to obsess about the image we put off to the world, but we do need to be conscious of it.
I’m glad you mentioned the internet, still being a fairly new technology people often overlook it. It is a powerful tool for ministry. Livechurch.tv is the epitome of what a church can do with the internet to impact the world. However, it is also a powerful tool used for the corruption of man. Many internet browsers have content block that you can enable. I have this setup: no websites can be visited on my web browser except the ones added to a list. To add a new site to the list the person with the correct password must add it to the list. My wife has that password. This can be a minor inconvenience when i’m trying to look at a friends site, or a new blog like swerve, but protecting my marriage is worth any such inconvenience.
Last i checked xxxchurch wasn’t Mac compatible. anyone know of a similar program for mac users? I’m going to check into Covenant Eyes today. thanks for the suggestion!
xxxchurch.com’s x3 service is now both mac and PC compatible. It’s a simple program that just emails a list of sites visited on your computer to a number of accountability partners. It does not have filtering like Covenant Eyes; however, many operating systems and ISPs are now offering content filtering without charge.
Thanks for the great feedback. I am changing my policy as of today.
Craig,
Your words, “No pastor is a small target”, woke me up! If I go down because of a rumor or because I give Satan a toe hold in my life, then my family will be hurt and my church. There is too much at risk.
Brandon, Emotional affairs are so easy to have and you may not even notice them happening on EITHER side. Try to at least have another person or find someone in your church that can take on the women. We related to each other better anyway!
Auditors are required to have independence. Read below. I believe all followers of Jesus Christ should have this standard because honestly, at the end of the day, we are representing Him and there is NO greater responsibility! (resist the temptation to not read to the end!)
There are two aspects to independence: independence in fact and independence in appearance. Independence in fact refers to the ‘actual’ independence of the auditor. This is also referred to as “independence of miind”. It is concerned with the state of mind of the auditor and how the auditor acts in a specific situation. It is extremely difficult, and in many cases not possible, to determine whether an auditor is, in fact, independent, because it involves knowing what has gone on in the mind of the auditor.
The other aspect of independence is independence in appearance. This is how another reasonable and informed person, who has knowledge of all the relevant information, might view the independence of the auditor. It is necessary for auditors to not only act independently, but be seen to be independent because independence in appearance reduces the opportunity for an auditor to act otherwise than independently.
Brandon, Glad to hear you are recognizing you are not a small target. Once the reality of that settles in, it will change a lot.
I learned a lesson years ago when I was out with my mother-in-law and people who didn’t know who she was started asking questions. We can’t be too careful.
[...] more, check out Mark Beeson’s, Perry Noble’s, and Craig Groeschel’s [...]
I am still floored by comments pastors have made to me when no one was around, things they would never say to their wives. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that pastors have someone else read their email. I am still recovering from an email a pastor sent to me years ago that embarrassed me so much I immediately deleted it. He may not have meant for it to be suggestive, but I’m sure his wife would not have appreciated the words. Here’s an idea… cc your wife on all of your email!
Still - pastors, we women, especially us who are single or solo for whatever reason, need your love and support. Please don’t act like we have leprosy. You are also representatives of Jesus to us. When you ignore us, it hurts. Can you not be strong enough in Christ, and strong enough in your marriages to at least love us too in a healthy way?
Women at the Well, Thanks for your perspective. I’m sorry to hear you received a suggestive email. I especially appreciate your encouragement for pastors to show (appropriate) love and support to women.
Craig: I got to this post late so I hope I am not too late in commenting. There is wisdom in your “young” years my friend. Years ago I adopted many of those same markers but only after some tough situations. For 18 years or more I made sure I was not alone in the office complex/church building with a female. I made sure the secretary was there or my wife or another staff member. When I moved here I relaxed that position. It is a small town and we don’t have a church building but an office right on the busy highway across from the high school. The secretary only works until noon. The other staff member would often be gone. I found myself the “victim” of lots of “drop-bys.” You know, “I was driving by and saw your car.” Then one began dropping way too often. She was co-dependent and it became way too uncomfortable for me. Nothing happened (honestly) but the wake up call came when my wife began to question the frequency of the visits and calls. I told her the truth and we began to work on it together in getting myself out from under this trap. It was hard, feelings were hurt, but it was necessary. I am free of that chain today because of it. But the real problem still persists. What to do about an office that has an OPEN sign on the door, a car in the lot, lights on, along a major highway? I still haven’t figured that out yet. I have talked in public about the need to not just drop by but many think it doesn’t apply to them. The office is often a drop-off point for supplies. Any advice?
Bill asked a good question about how to handle “office drop bys…” If you don’t have staff or others around and the opposite sex drops by, how do you all handle it?
Bill, I would move the meeting into a place where you do have staff. If no staff is present at all, I’d recommend saying, “Hey, let’s take this meeting outside!” (In a calm way, not like you’re trying to start a fight haha) and then have it outside where it is more public.
Now if there is bad weather outside…
It is good to see some good old-fashioned integrity being exampled and taught…
I love the Spirit of this post, and the understanding that example, and care is required, and no one is above temptation…
Just the recognition of the necessity to “guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus”, is encouraging to me…
Thanks for the real kind of transparency Craig… sorry to hear your criticized for it sometimes…. but that can also be a clue that your leadership is hitting sensitive, but necessary areas that would rather lie dormant…
I thank God for pastors like you…
Can you clarify what you mean by “I never travel overnight alone.” Does this mean you won’t go to a multi-day conference (for instance) without your wife or roommate? Is the issue is being in a hotel room with no accountablity?
Thanks in advance.
I’ve been blessed by this post really. I used to stick to these types of guideline closely, but sort of let loose these days. It’s a good reminder for me to resume them.
The transparency of this blog is truly admirable. I appreciate seeing the human side of all of you..
Jared: have done that a time or two (moved outside) but it is tough when it is cold. In fact, the person I was writing about now realizes that if I am to see her it will be outside unless staff or someone is here. There is only me, the associate and secretary. Small office building so no place to move it to. Thanks for the confirmation on moving it outside. Still need help though with the drop-bys.
Brian, Craig takes at least one male staff member with him if his wife doesn’t go. It’s the hotel accountability issue.
Bill, put a sign on the door saying “Office Hours: 9 AM-Noon” (or whenever it is your secretary is there). Also include a phone number for after hours. When she leaves, lock the door. If they need to talk to you they can call and make an appointment.
Craig this is so true. Some things that i put into practice nearly everyday is that i dont watch tv when im alone. the only time i will watch tv is sports with other people. (and i even have to be careful when watching sports now cuz of the commercials.) I was spending too much tim channel surfing so i just cut the problem at the root. Also, I have xxxchurch.com downloaded on my cmomputer so if i go on any bad or questionable sites my accountability partners will receive an email with all the list of the sites vistited. Thanks for your blog, your ministry, your authentic Godly advice, and thank you for pouring into me all these years. Keep on Keepin on!
[...] from a blog I know to a blog I don’t know, to a blog that person recommended, where I found this post arguing that a male pastor should never speak in private to a woman. You will need to read the [...]
Brandon,
The fact that you are thinking through a policy in the first place puts you way ahead of most pastors.
It is good to NEVER meet with a person of the opposite sex alone (even in a public place).
Meet in your office with the door open and at least one other person in the office area.
Keep pictures of your spouse and kids displayed prominently on your desk to remind you and the counselee that you are a family person.
Keep your spouse (and secretary) informed about every meeting.
Jared, going outside is good but I personally think it is better to just explain that you don’t meet with anyone without someone else present. Even drop-bys.
I think that the teachable moment of why you don’t outweighs the possibility of offense. If they don’t understand why you can’t meet with them alone that is a big red flag anyway.
Keep your church LEADERS INFORMED about your policies so they can defend you when needed and can hold you accountable.
When traveling, I have a ministry colleague who will not even turn on a TV in a hotel room. He takes books ’cause there is always reading to catch up on and a hotel room is a nice place to do it. Plus, you don’t have to worry about what’s on the TV if you already have vowed to keep it off.
Womanatthewell points that these types of personal policies transcend gender. In fact, they may be even more important for women in ministry.
Sounds like those of us who are male need to take extra care to try to help out our female colleagues. (Maybe offering to go with them when they need to make a visit or offering to stay late and work with them when they need to meet with a male at their office.)
I’m glad to see this discussion thread ’cause this is one of the ways that Satan can destroy a ministry.
The fact that we are discussing it is a big first step. We need to refer our friends to this site.
Being outside doesn’t stop ungodly communication….most pastors I know, once they mention that there will be a third person at the session find that the woman doesn’t really need to talk after all….or things are much better all of a sudden…integrity is powerful in anyone’s life, guard it with all your strength…
I’m not surprised, not because I think for a moment that those women have anything improper to say or suggest or do, but because there are many things better discussed one to one, in confidence, and in the kind of openness and frankness that can only take place then. In insisting on a chaperone you are in fact accusing the women of impropriety and little wonder that they then lose the desire to talk.
You cannot guard against sin by the simple expedient of running from that appearance of it. The worse sins are the less obvious ones. You cannot dodge them by such simple expedients, and it is no good approaching the more obvious sins as though they can be dodged in this way - what next? Back to the veil for Christian women?? Behaving as though every second person you meet is a treat is simply horrible.
Integrity comes from within - pause to ask yourselves if it is really the way of Jesus for his followers to show such fear, for fear it is. It was after all he who broke all the rules by talking to the woman at the well.
What a sad and terrifying post this is - as are, as far as I can bear to read, most of the comments. What on earth do you think women are? And what kind of woman would dream of sharing any deeply-felt spiritual or other problem with someone who was so obviously insecure in himself as well as holding such a low opinion of her - and presumably all women? Sort of “Frailty, thy name is woman” huh?
I don’t think any of this has to do with women or thinking people are vile or bad — it comes from putting the church first. The truth is, people talk, and gossip, and slander, and putting policies in place that will make the church (not just the pastor or staff) above reproach only benefits the kingdom of God. Too many churches and pastors have gone under and we should do everything we can to protect the integrity of the church. Policies like this are not about a low opinion of women — they’re about healthy boundaries that don’t allow satan to get any sort of foothold.
Let’s face it. Men are weak. Anybody know where I can get a discount veil?
If the woman feels that one-on-one is the only way let her find a Godly woman to bare her soul to. There are many Godly women who could better understand her needs than a male pastor could.
And that was supposed to be funny, but that was kind of mean, wasn’t it? We are all weak. Safeguards are good. Men are being so attacked today with the onslaught of images on TV, in movies, email, websites. Women are too.
It goes back to just loving Jesus first, every day, every moment, then having that discernment on how to love others, men and women. And understanding each others weaknesses, and respecting those.
Just think.. in heaven, we will not have any of this nonsense!
I don’t think the policy of never meeting alone with somebody of the opposite sex does anything to safeguard the church. For a start, it instantly implies that either/both the clergy and the parishioners are liable to be unfaithful at the drop of a hat. This is not a good thing to imply. It will further imply that anybody who does meet with somebody alone is doing something very dubious, possibly sinful. There are people who find it easy to talk of their hopes and fears and their relationship with God in public, and there are many who do not. It is almost certain that having more than one person present is going to increase the pressure on people to say what is expected and not what is true.
I am almost equally amazed and amused by the suggestion that working with a colleague of the opposite sex is going to magically remove temptation. How?? How will you ensure that the colleague does not become a source of temptation.
A mature Christian needs to learn how to deal with temptations and while there may be times when you actually do have to run, I would suggest that such times are at worst a tiny minority. Suggesting by your actions that this is the only way to deal with such things is not giving your congregations the lead they need.
Let me put it another way - looking at porn is always looking at porn. Meeting alone with people of the opposite sex is something the most reputable professionals do all the time without a thought of anything improper crossing their minds. It is the way many kinds of business and therapeutic activity is conducted in western societies. Making this into a risky and sexualised activity is doing nobody any favours. Most especially it implicitly degrades the women (and men) who are seeking a meeting by suggesting that they are sexual objects far more than they are humans.
The trick is not to hide behind veils. Th trick is to earn to see whole people and not sexual objects. I would suggest that this is pretty much what Jesus meant when he so roundly condemned looking at a woman with lust in the hear as committing adultery.
Jesus had extraordinarily intimate and innocent relationships with women - meeting with them and talking with them in ways that outraged his contemporaries. He paid scant attention to his reputation. We need to take his attitudes seriously.
X3watch on the Mac plus weekly accountability and prayer with a trusted partner.
Here are my newest two:
Whenever I meet a new female anywhere, I give myself 1 minute to bring up the fact that I am a happily married man.
Then when I next see my wife, I have 1 minute to tell her that I even spoke with another woman that day.
Maybe some people with think that’s religious and crazy, but this way, I can’t hide ANYTHING. I’m not into failing fatally.
Thank you.
Rosemary’s put it wonderfully well. I’d just like to add my tuppenceworth: rather than hedge yourself about with so many fear-driven rules and regulations (so contrary to the wonderful freedom of Christ) might I suggest you pray about it? Pray for yourself and your own weaknesses, and for whoever sees in you the love of Christ and wishes to benefit from your counsel. And pray also for those people of either gender who have been discouraged because of the negative attitudes expressed here.
Wow! I am sooo late on this one…but what a read I am exhausted! Lets face it…men are stimulated visually and women are stimulated audibly…porn is not successful because of woman viewers as Vegas is not built on “winners”…In my opinion…women are more prone to emotional affairs and we need to safeguard our hearts and make wise choices with who we share our hearts with…
I admit it though… I am tired of being viewed as a sexual object and a threat and I refuse to wear a veil…Amen to Rosemary and womanatthe well…but here is the deal…do what works for YOU! If you have issues (with whatever we all do)….safeguard…
Hi all,
When I started 9 years ago this was my position not to be alone with women, but I am a staff of one for a parish of seven churches. The Parish office is in my home, but the majority of my visits are outside my office because of the distances. In public, Lynn and I display how close we are and I never publicly complain about her. During a home visit, I am the one who is sitting in front of the picture window, and Lynn knows where I am and for how long. Still, this is a difficult situation. Do female minister’s have the same concerns about meeting with males or both male and female ministers with meeting with a homosexual?
I don’t meet with any woman alone that is not my wife or one of my daughters. Sure, I have caught some flack for this but its worth it. Covenant Eyes is on my laptop and all of my home computers including those that belong my kids. my wife has access to my laptop, cell phone, facebook, etc. The same policies are in place for all of our leadership. The enemy really is a raging lion seeking whom he may devour. But along with the defensive, we go on the offensive with prayer. We all still engage the opposite gender with the gospel but when it is the opposite gender we jsut make sure to do so with at least one other person.
Thank you to Rosemary, Chris and Woman at the Well. I am a female pastor at a small church. I don’t meet with anyone alone in the building - if someone comes by I will step outside with them and make an appointment, because I am aware of being physically vulnerable. But that’s very different from a male pastor deciding that to protect himself and the church, he will only meet with men (which is what you’re doing if you say you won’t meet with women). How do you justify that before Jesus who intentionally broke taboos and had conversations with individual women? How do you justify that when Jesus’ instruction to a man who lusted after a woman who was not his wife was to gouge out his own eyes (clearly hyperbole) - not to toss a burka over the woman? Instead, why not cultivate policies that make you and the church safer overall: meet with any individual in a more public place? Make the distinction not between men and women, but between people who behave appropriately and those who don’t - men and women can have codependent personalities and desire inappropriate relationships with their pastors. People who work in business meet with others regardless of gender all the time. Pastors have been knwon to be derailed by moral failure with congregants of the SAME gender. Broad-stroke rules that demote entire classes of people while attaining a standing of virtue among a clergy set who don’t share that standing, start to look pretty Pharisaical when we compare them with the gospels.
I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree with you Susan. My policy as a pastor when women ask to come and see me for counseling is this: I say to them that I do not counsel them alone. However, my wife will be there in the room. I have full confidence in my wife as she is VERY insightful and discerning, in addition to being able to keep confidences. I know it is not in her job description as “pastor’s wife.” There isn’t one. But this is one that she and I have talked about and she is more than willing to do this, so as to protect everyone involved. Far from devaluing the women who seek my counsel, I believe this policy actually encourages them to know that they are very valued.
Just my 2C
It’s interesting that most of the commenters who object to Craig’s suggestions are female to whom I say–you wouldn’t understand, it’s a guy thing. Some have used Jesus as an example and said we should meet with the opposite sex alone because He did. Jesus never sinned; can you say the same?
Two Old Testament stories come to mind: a man described as “a man after God’s own heart” fell into sexual sin and Joseph had to spend time in jail because of a false accusation from Potiphar’s wife.
A pastor who refuses to meet alone with a woman is trying to protect her reputation as much as he is his own. He has no intent of offending anyone; it’s just the opposite.
Is it just the opposite sex that we should not be alone with? I live in Miami, and while I would not be tempted by someone of the same sex as myself, perception is still an issue…Especially when traveling.
As a result of being on TV here, I’ve received several suggestive emails from other men. We may laugh, but does the prevalence of homosexuality demand that we extend the boundaries to include both sexes?
Just a thought…
Tomesnyder — I accept with respect what you’re saying; I can believe that I can’t understand this ‘guy thing.’ But then will you believe me that some pastors, by refusing to meet with any woman at all (not just counseling), while at the same time freely meeting with men in the congregation, perpetrate a hurt that is ungodly? All I’m saying is use some sensitivity going the other way — don’t invite the men into the inner sanctum and close the door on women. Think through the way you meet with anyone/everyone. It isn’t up to women to “just understand” - it’s up to men pastors to do some understanding, too.
Can anyone point to an example where Jesus met with a woman alone in a room? I can’t. Every example of Jesus ministering to women in Scripture is done either in a group setting or outside - where everyone could see.
I don’t think we can stop following Jesus’s example because he was without sin and we are not! He was not without temptation, now was he?
Other professional men, many NOT Christians, manage to meet women alone without seducing them. I really find it hard to believe that Christian men cannot manage it.
[...] article today entitled Drastic Measures to Avoid Moral Failure. It links to posts from Perry Noble, Craig Groeschel and Shaun King which highlight reasons pastors have moral failures and/or safeguards they’ve [...]
Thank you ladies for your insights. I am so glad that in a discussion like this there are voices and insights to balance / complement the ideas from the guys.
Being a man in the ministry myself, I must admit temptation comes often when I am most unprepared for. Some of the insights are so true here. Men are relatively more visual while women are relatively more emotional. The idea of an “emotional affair” is not exclusive to women only. There are men who are also involved in secret emotional affairs.
Ladies, thank you for telling us that some of the men’s personal practices here might be interpreted differently from their original intent. However, I would like ask you to pray for us, men, so that we can learn how to do better. Some of the safeguard measures might not be the best, but it is our attempt to protect ourselves, the church, and also the ladies. When some wrote that they will not meet with women alone, my immediate feeling is something like this: “wow, this man know that he is fallible, susceptible to temptation, and thus set up a boundary so as to avoid sin.” Perhaps some of you might think that we men are blaming the ladies. However, as a man myself, I am thinking more on how to set boundary for myself so that I will not sin. (Of course there are, and will be, temptations coming from the opposite sex, however, this can only account for a small percentage of my own personal thought.)
I was studying the book of 1 Corinthians recently. There are who feel nothing when eating food sacrificed to idols and there are those who are deeply troubled by it. Let us bear with one another. In a similar way, please bear with us who, for the sake of our own sinful nature and for the sake of protecting the church, may be regarded by some of you as “weak.” Knowing my own sinful nature, I am willing to be termed “weak” here.
[...] Here is what Craig said he does. [...]
I find it interesting that the thing people seem most concerned about here is the damage that happens when people gossip about the “appearance of evil.”
Perhaps our time would be better spent dealing with that most pervasive of sins and getting our holy minds out of the gutter.
I am bi-vocational, and can meet with anyone of any gender at my “other” job, alone, and no one raises an eyebrow. But Christians seem to be the first ones to jump to conclusions. How sad.
In my church, we have a hard and fast rule that follows Matt 5:23 to a T. We work hard to cultivate a “no gossip zone” and so far, it’s working.
If someone in the church goes to another members and says, “I saw xxx alone with yyyy the other day,” that member is faithful to stop the gossiper in their tracks and remind them of the Scripture.
It’s the only church I’ve ever been a part of that has even addressed this. Why are we treating the women of our churches like a dangerous drug? Let’s address the real sin where it lies…in the gossipers.
GREAT! This really needs to be taught to the body in general
PastorK,
I am also bi-vocational and I try to live by my standards at my other job as well. At another city, rumors started swirling around my co-workers about one of my female colleagues and me because we had to spend so much time together with my “girlfriend.”
I bit one guy’s head off by telling him that I was married to my girlfriend, and that I don’t appreciate any joking about such things as adultery. That ended the talk in a hurry.
One time I made the mistake of asking this female colleague if she had plans (I was going to her location to train her on the software we were using.). Her response was, in a seductive voice, “Well, what did you have in mind?” I quickly told her that I don’t joke about things like that, and I’d appreciate it if she didn’t, either.
So you see, this is an issue outside of the church, and it’s hardly an issue only for pastors. People have suggested Jerry Jenkins’ book, “Hedges,” and I can’t recommend it highly enough no matter what you do for a living.
Point of clarification in my first paragraph:
The co-worker and I spent a lot of time together, and some were calling her my girlfriend. Hope I didn’t confuse too many people!
It may be late to jump in on a hashed and rehashed subject but I feel it is imperative that people take seriously the threat to every pastor. I, like many of the naive people who have commented on this, did not see a problem with a man being alone with a woman in the ministry. My heart was pure (as pure as that can be) and my intentions were honest.
The problem happened after I began to face other ministry related issues (we wrestle not against flesh & blood) and I kept trying to Man Up to get through them as a good pastor would. Forgetting (the devil is a roaring Lion, seeking who he may devour) and setting myself up for the ultimate failure.
Not only did I fail, I failed with another female that also had good intentions (to the best of my knowledge) and the net effect from just my side was it destroyed me, my marriage, “my ministry”, my name, and the real shame was it destroyed the work of God in so many people.
I know that you who are beyond failing are already justifying why I must have failed and why you will never fail because you are soooo strong (in God). Many strong men have been slain…
You are the ones closest who feels the safest. You have the farthest to fall and will hit bottom with a loud bang. The question is…is it really worth it?
Why not set up strong barriers (such as Craig so wisely suggested) and if you disagree, disagree to yourself so you do not influence another brother or sister to let down their guard and face the same results as so many others.
I asked God why I failed and he told me…
1. I let my self get physically exhausted (I was Superman)
2. I let myself get mentally exhausted (can you say burnout?)
3. I let myself be in a position where I could fail (if I ever wanted to fail).
Thinking you will never be in a position where you will want to fail is to think you are beyond temptation.
To think you will never fail even if you are tempted is to think you are on the same level as Jesus and that would be foolish of even the greatest of people.
Make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lust…
I sincerely apologize for letting this get so long, but I do not want a single one of you to face waking up nearly every day for three years and crying my eyes out because I had allowed myself to do what I never thought I was capable of doing.
After 10 years, I now have my wife and family back (thank you God). I have my ministry back and I feel God is using me once again. But, I can NEVER repair the damage I did to the cause of Christ and the lives of those who looked up to me.
[...] the three lists: Shaun King’s Craig Groeschel’s Perry [...]
G’day guys,
we use on our network some good software called Untangle. It’s free and has a relatively good filtering system that updates itself from a central database. If you have several machines and need filtering and reports install this. go to http://www.untangle.com
Often the root of this problem is something deeper. Asking the Holy Spirit why we have these desires helps, as he may reveal hidden issues from the past.
All for His Glory.
Your brother,
Olie
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I have a question regarding not meeting with a women alone. I completely understand the sitution..I have been pondering talking to my pastor for a few months now. I have some very personal issues I would like to talk to someone about and Ive been praying on what to do and where to start. Ive really needed someone to talk to. I came across this website in tears searching for an answer…. I am a 24 year old female and I go to a VERY large church. Ive been a member for 2 years now and doubt the pastor would even recognize me. So should I even approach him? I feel like after watching him preach he’s someone who would really understand. I know there are other people at church that are open to talk but its not the same. I have watched him and listened to his love for God and I believe he is true to what he says on stage. If I just asked a church team member I would be taking a chance on whether or not I even found the right person to talk to. Also, my preacher has a wife that has made a few appearances and she seems like someone I could really open up to. However, I do not know how to contact them unless its right after service. So how do I approach them?
Does the church have an office? If so contact the secretary/receptionist and tell her you want to talk to someone about counseling. They can help you get started. You can develop a relationship with the counselor before sharing intimate details.
God bless.
Great stuff - a friend of mine just sent this after we discussed this topic.I know i’m late to this ball game, but would apprec. clarification on the “never counsel a woman alone” issue. How then? Is there a 3rd party present? What do you suggest for small churches where the entire staff is only 3 or 4? How do you handle when no one else is avail to assist? Do you just leave the door open then? Is it ok to have the door closed if secretary is able to see in?
3rd party? Yes
Small staff? Use your wife or a volunteer
No one available? Postpone session
Door open/secretary see in? The concern can be words as well as actions; if you can’t cover both, postpone
Just my two bits worth.
@Susan I am male pastor and I fully agree with you. The reality is that each of Craig’s [and others] steps to “abstain” from the appearance of evil” can be sidestepped, because what is in your heart will eventually come out. These steps may help us avoid the appearance of sin, but beware that the sin may still remain and we are no better that the worst of offenders.
[...] Groeschel takes similar steps. He says, ” I never travel overnight alone. All my internet activity is monitored. We block [...]
[...] Groeschel takes similar steps. He says, ” I never travel overnight alone. All my internet activity is monitored. We block [...]