Plagiarizing Pastors
Some have said, “If a pastor copies from one source, it’s plagiarizing. If he copies from multiple sources, he’s researching.”
This week I’d like us to talk about using other people’s material with integrity.
Giving Credit
On LifeChurch.tv Open, we don’t require attribution for resources that people download and use. We don’t need credit nor desire it. We simply want to make anything we create freely available for other pastors and churches to use in ministry.
Sadly, we know of a couple of pastors who have been fired, in part, for “plagiarizing” our work and others whose integrity has been questioned.
Here are my thoughts:
- It isn’t plagiarizing if you’re given permission.
- Just because it isn’t plagiarizing doesn’t always mean you shouldn’t give credit to others.
Years ago I used material—with permission—from a friend. He had asked me not to credit him, so I didn’t. A few people took a strong stance against me for plagiarizing. Although he didn’t desire to be mentioned, we all would have been better off if I had given credit for the material I used.
Giving credit does several valuable things:
- It honors the pastor or church who came up with the idea.
- It demonstrates humility and security.
- It exposes a church to other great leaders and teachers.
- It removes any doubt of copying.
This week, we’ll discuss when and how to give credit.
What are your initial thoughts?
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I eagerly await your posts this week Craig! I have chosen to err on the side of “too much knowledge” versus “no knowledge at all.” I would rather give credit where credit is due than have to face the “dogs” later should someone get a hold of my sermon. I see this as becoming a bigger and bigger problem with podcasting and the internet becoming so huge in the life of so many pastors. I recently preached a series on “Confessions of a Pastor” and I even gave some guy named Craig credit for the idea and some of the thoughts. :) It is better to err on the side of caution I think. I also heard someone say (I think Chuck Swindoll), “There are no original thoughts.” I look forward to what you have to say and hope you will cover what to give credit for and what not to give credit for.
Craig,
It is one thing to show a video because it is obvious whose work it is. But do you think is OK to read another person’s sermon even if you give credit? Somehow I see that as being lazy & robbing me of studying & learning from new insights from the Bible. Maybe I’m off but I couldn’t take a message from someone else entirely w/o making it personal.
I definitely do not like it when Pastor’s preach someone else’s sermon and then charge for CD’s afterwards. That is wrong. Bishop Eddie Long of Atlanta, GA was discovered preaching a canned sermon that he never gave credit to and later sold to the public. I do not agree with that.
When I was a new believer, I caught my Pastor preaching at least a portion of a TD Jakes sermon word for word. He preached it as his own. That has never left my mind.
I don’t think we need to reinvent the wheel for everything. I have been loving your kids resources that I download to DVD. Looking forward to doing “Around the World” next month. Thanks!
But I do think we need to get our messages before the Lord- you know “fresh bread.” If we are going to use another pastor’s sermon, it should be in quotes not the whole sermon! That seems a little lazy to me at the least and dishonest at worse.
I make it a habit to expose myself to as many different pastor’s sermons as possible… about 35 to 40 hours a week…
It is surprising how much is plagiarized and how little credit is given…
It is just stealing… period.
I know the message of the gospel never changes, so if Jesus is being preached Tis Gar Plen, but it is a mark on ministers who constantly plagiarize… as brothers and sisters, God’s people shouldn’t be that way… its poor ambassadorship, and stewardship…
This is a very interesting discussion! I think the hardest thing is that most pastors use portions, or even whole ideas because they have got a fresh revelation about it when they heard it preached. Often, even if you were to credit someone, chances are it is someone elses.
At the end of the day, I think that most pastors would be honoured to have someone else preach part or all of their sermons. I dont think pastors care that much about it - it is the congregations that get funny about it. Certainly you should not preach a sermon or series and then market it as your own, but selling for a few measly dollars to bless people in your own church is fine (I think). We need to focus on the important things - that Jesus is being preached. That people are getting saved, that lives are being transformed.
I often find that sermons i have heard which have impacted me, just become part of my life’s message and end up in sermons.
Take it as a compliment if other people love what you are saying. (Not if they are marketing it as their own though).
If part of my job in the family is to prepare food and make sure the kids are well fed - who cares how or where I get the food. What matters is that my family is well fed.
I don’t like the heart behind this.
So pastors are valuable for coming up with Fresh content every week? Is it really beneficial to the body that we have millions of unique sermons that aren’t helping us become better Christians anyway.
The way ya’ll are talking about it in the comments, it’s like you deserve to get paid for this content! Non-sense. Sorry. That’s non-sense. If that’s your attitude, then you don’t have the body’s best interests in mind, you think you need to have an amazing special new message to tickle our ears, and write a book, and sell CD’s - money, fame, money.
God used Paul’s letters and had them read at several churches.
This points to the commercialization of the Church and the sensational focus on fresh content.
Craig, this blog post GREATLY discourages me!!! I’m so discouraged for the Church! X( I doubt we’d be having this discussion if there wasn’t so much money and acclaim involved in pastoring a church.
Bill, I hope Confessions went well for you and your church.
Kevin, I am not sure that reading someone else’s message would ever be very effective.
Kyle, I understand you are passionate about this subject. Please don’t talk bad about specific people on this site. Bishop Long is a friend of mine.
Formerfire, You make a good point. A pastor might hear a great message, and it sparks something that comes to life in him. I’ve written some on this to cover later this week.
Here are my thoughts:
I think that it is dishonest when a pastor tells a story like it happened to him when it didn’t.
As podcast and the internet have made others sermons more available, I think we have a danger of pastors no longer having to sit before God and dig into his word to hear from him. The danger of this is is the effect it has on the pastor over the long haul.
All truth is God’s truth. If it is truth it belongs to God. If it is not truth you shouldn’t be preaching it in the first place. If it is God’s, nobody deserves credit for it but God.
Jesse, I am not sure how money is coming into this discussion. We GIVE everything away. I agree the tone of the comments are getting rough early in the morning. I’ll have our team start removing any that become harsher than those above. I think this subject is worthy of discussion. With all the resources available, pastors would be wise to learn how to use them for God’s glory with integrity.
Tricky subject, especially when those you’re using the information from ask not the be referenced.
I think we put to much value in whether something is “ours” or not. It seems to me that everything we know is something we’ve learned from somebody either through their verbal instruction or their writings. Isn’t this true? No matter how original and creative something might sound, it’s still just a regurgitation of the colective knowledge that a person has accumulated. All we’re doing is coming up with more ways to say what God has already said. I don’t think a message belongs to anyone, I think we are stewards of the message “all things were created by him and for him”. Having said that, I agree 100% with Craig, giving credit is a great thing. Especially when it introduces people to great communicators that will have an impact on their lives.
Craig,
Forgive me for possibly going in the wrong direction here, but this old joke is relevant to the conversation and perhaps will “lighten up” the negative direction of comments.
A mentor of mine used to always joke:
“The first time I quote something, I say, ‘As so-and-so said…’
The second time I say ‘I’ve heard it said…’
and the third time I quote it, I say ‘As I always say…’
My questions are not meant to sound sarcastic. They are meant to be pure food for thought:
1) If Pastors are receiving their sermon content from the Word of God and from God speaking through His word to the preacher, wouldn’t that make the sermon content from God?
2) Furthermore, if the sermon content is from God, then why can’t any other preacher use it without being labeled as “lazy” or “dishonest?”
3) Lastly, if the content is NOT from God then it should it really even be preached to begin with?
Peace
The people did enjoy Confessions! It is my desire to be faithful to God’s Word and also to make sure that when the folks come to hear “me preach” (I know that sounds bad but please understand what I mean) that they are not bored. I study hard. I am in my office by 4:00 so I can have unbothered time in both my Quiet Time and my sermon prep time. No man is an island and knows so much that he cannot and should not consult other sources. Be they biblical authors or even “secular” (I dislike that term) authors like papers, magazines, etc. we need to present our material in an interesting and engaging way. If I find a statistic I will cite the source. If I hear or read a story I will say, “I read recently…” If say, I read a story that happened to Craig in his book, I will say, “I was reading such-and-such by (author) and he tells about an incident that happened to him.” I personally could care less if anyone borrowed from me (I would feel honored) but if it came from another source I would be embarrassed if I passed it off as my experience. I do not consider it lazy if I work hard researching for the sermon and use other sources. It IS wrong to preach someone else’s sermon and pass it off as your own. Sorry this is so long. (what else can you expect from a preacher?) :)
Maybe I can provide a non-pastors point of view.
I’m reminded of a verse in chapter one of Ecclesiastes where Solomon, perhaps the wisest man to ever live, said there is nothing truly new under the sun. Let us also remember the knowledge and ideas of pastors and teachers comes from God himself. I see nothing wrong with taking inspiration from another pastor’s work. God speaks to us all in a variety of ways: through songs, movies, friends, family, etc. Who’s to say he can’t speak to you through another pastor and inspire a similar message to be preached to your own church?
I suppose when and where credit is given is the main question here, and that depends on a variety of factors. If an entire series is built on another pastor’s idea (such as “How to Be Rich” from earlier this year at LC), obviously credit should be given (and it was). On the other hand, if credit is given EVERY time a thought or idea is used, many pastors would never make it through a sermon for all the stops they’d have to make.
One of my hobbies is watching different preachers online from around the country. I will often recognize a thought being used by one preacher as originating from another pastor’s sermon. More often than not, credit is not given. This in no way causes me to lose respect for that pastor or causes me to think he is plagiarizing. After all, God is using these pastors to preach his Word to his people. Do you really think God has something entirely different to say to every church around the world? Of course not, He’s going to use similar methods to get His point across.
It goes without saying, if someone recites an entire message word for word, then we have a problem. If time isn’t spent with God developing the message and making it personal, it won’t be effective, as Craig already stated.
If you are using someone else’s material and they don’t want attribution you can always say you got if from a friend/brother without identifying that person.
I believe the first thing to recognize is that all things - inspiration and otherwise - have been GIVEN to us. Peter acknowledged this. Once we believe something is “ours”, we fail to acknowledge the One who imparted it whether through our own personal study or through another vessel. There is nothing wrong with giving credit when appropriate - not only for the sake of the author, but also for the sake of our own humility. But, EVERYTHING we have has been given to us. And, on another note, nothing can replace our own personal study of scriptures. It is the very core of our relationship with Christ.
Two words: same team.
Interesting discussion! There was a very prominent pastor in our town here that was let go because of preaching another ministers sermon word for word. It was all over the news.
I definitely believe that you should never tell a story that someone else told that was personal to them as your own. That is lying!
When pastors use someone elses material and dont take the time to study and pray then we do have a serious problem. I get ideas all the time from others preaching. Not necessarily the original exact thought but many times listening to someone else gets my creative juices flowing.
Giving credit is so important. If we are embarrassed to give someone credit then we have a serious problem. Congregations don’t think less if we say, so and so said this. They want to hear the word of the Lord that changes.
Thanks for the discussion this week.
Well said Dusty!
Pray, study, make it your own, give credit where you can!
i cant wait to read the other posts.. this will be good for some people to hear..
Patrick, Amen.
I give credit in our program each week if we are using material from Life Church, Saddleback or where ever. Currently we are going through a Celebrate Recovery series from Saddleback and it is clearly noted where the material originated.
As for effectiveness…God is using the CR series in a mighty way. I have no problem using someone else’s series. There are times I’m using word for word and times I change a lot. When I stand up on Sunday morning my desire is that God will direct every single word based on my preparation during the week. Seems like a great way to avoid “plagiarism”.
By the way…it’s all God’s anyway. Let’s be careful not to judge the motives of those that benefit from the material that great churches provide to others.
It’s a heart matter…Am I repeating words or am I allowing God to direct my preparation and delivery even if much of my prep comes from a series used elsewhere.
Great topic Craig… thanks!
I really appreciate your generosity to the Kingdom with things like “Open”, etc.
For me, the metric I use in preaching is effectiveness and changed lives. So I am unapologetic about getting inspiration, structures, series, illustrations, big ideas, etc, from other pastors. Even when I use those things though, it doesn’t decrease the amount of prayer or time with God or in the Bible I spend… just makes it different.
I am more interested in reaching seekers and helping believers become more like Jesus than people thinking I am super-original, etc.
That said, I choose to attribute when I can and I try to do it in as natural a way as possible. An example would be “I’m real thankful to ______________ for really influencing how I think about this…” or “I recently heard a great sermon on this that really resonated with me and I want to share it with you…”
I have also on occasion given credit in writing on the message outline. I did this for 40 Days of Purpose, for example, since I chose to stick very closely to Rick Warren’s messages (albeit with my own illustrations and stories and hopefully less cheesy humor, lol) — but the structure and outline was all Rick.
I think a lot of it is motivation — am I motivated by effectiveness or laziness? Am I motivated by helping people apply God’s word or because I want people to think I am deeper/more creative/more insightful than I really am?
All that said, I see little harm in attribution/credit so that would be my vote.
I’m going to go and be fully supportive of plagiarism in the pastorship as long as the pastor has appropriate permissions to do so. Why not?
The idea that plagiarism is a problem tells us just how far off the pastoral role has gotten from its mission. Plagiarism is a problem for _entertainers_ - that is, it is evidence that they stole material for their act. Pastors should not be confused with entertainers. It is not their job to give you “fresh material”. It is not their job to give you conversational pieces that you know others won’t get. It is their job to lead the Church in a closer walk with Christ through any means possible.
Craig -
FYI - the fact that you all give away all of your materials is one of the main reasons my wife and I decided on LifeChurch.tv over others. That was a real indication that, whatever other faults you may have, you knew what mission you were on and what the important parts were.
Great discussion and we all have opinions…some of them stronger than others. :)
I think the decision is a personal one, and each person knows the motives behind what they are doing. The intent of your heart is what I THINK matters.
We have used one of the Lifechurch series called Parenthood. It was a huge success, we had videos we didn’t have to pay for, logos we didn’t have to create. Craig doesn’t ask for credit, but we gave it anyway. When I would study, I took the text he used, took a few of the illustrations and thoughts, and then studied it for myself and added my personality and insights given to me from God.
Here’s a thought were Jesus and Paul guilty of plagarizing Old Testament passages??
Great discussion and we all have opinions…some of them stronger than others. :)
I think the decision is a personal one, and each person knows the motives behind what they are doing. The intent of your heart is what I THINK matters.
We have used one of the Lifechurch series called Parenthood. It was a huge success, we had videos we didn’t have to pay for, logos we didn’t have to create. Craig doesn’t ask for credit, but we gave it anyway. When I would study, I took the text he used, took a few of the illustrations and thoughts, and then studied it for myself and added my personality and insights given to me from God.
The real fear is that preaching a sermon you did not write is that it lacks revelation. And that is what a minister is really supposed to be doing full time. Acts 6:4. We can find any orator to recite a sermon. The question of plagiarizing is not one of academic honesty, it goes to the call of the minister.
I listen to lots of preachers and I hear myself using phrases and ideas from lots of sermons. My altar call is almost identical to my first pastor’s. I use lifechurch graphics and series ideas as well as other materials available online. And I thank God for all of these influences on my ministry.
But there is a line between sharing resources and not being able to write an effective sermon. The danger is that the people we minister to lose confidence in our preached message because we have no connection to the person who wrote it. At least in a denominational setting you can say that this is the stand of our fellowship. Now, the only connection is that the minister thought it was good.
The reason people are getting fired and people lose confidence in the minister is because the minister has been misrepresenting skillful delivery of someone else’s material as revelation and diligent study. I am glad people want more.
I always give credit when I lift stuff from others. “This is some stuff from Bill Hybels and I stole it. Come get me Bill :>” I do not want to mislead people and have them think that I created the content. It is a matter of (1) recognizing the author and (2) teaching with integrity.
Thanks for the post. It’s hard to balance plagiarism and good research. Also, thanks for the link to the church resources. I’m in the process of downloading some kids resources to check them out.
I think it is also worth noting what the whole concept of plagiarism is really about… currency.
In Academia, “currency” is ideas, knowledge, etc. So using other people ideas without attribution is a problem.
In Journalism, same deal.
In Science, research/results are currency.
In Entertainment, originality pays the bills.
In church work, our currency is changed lives, not ideas or great sermons. Again, I see no reason not to give credit, but I also think when permission is given it is not plagiarism.
At our church, we have a team teaching model and many of our messages get written by several people. Even if I am writing/giving the message, it is not uncommon for our Associate Teaching Pastor to have written/re-written large sections of it (and vice versa). This process has made our sermon writing better, more effective, and more efficient.
In the academic world, this would be cheating.
In the church world I think this is smart and wise.
In that case, we don’t “verbally footnote” the message (”Pastor John did this part… Pastor Sally this part… Pastor Jose this part…etc).
We work as a team.
One of the issues may be what the expectations of the congregation is.
I blog about and talk about our team-sermon prep process, so no one is surprised by it. I am also very open about the use of other people’s material as inspiration and sometimes even content/structure/form.
Creating a culture that values effectiveness and transparency may be the key to doing this well…
When I began my first seminary class last fall I pretty much pulled my hair out trying to learn Turabian format for citations and bibliographies. Why all this trouble to give credit for little quotes!? I thought. One professor explained how our citations and attributions facilitate understanding. Knowing where an idea comes from allows for a clear flow of thought and avoids misunderstanding.
Since we are a team, it only adds value to give credit and attribute work to the source (or, if you like, the most recent source). I love knowing my pastor reads the work of others - it gives him even more credibility. This speaks volumes to our congregations and ministries of how the truth and principles we are sharing are dynamic and true enough to be passed on.
Thanks Craig and LifeChurch.tv for your resources and for opening this discussion.
Hot button topic that I did not expect to be one.
I think credit is a good thing - we are all on the same team (which has been said) - and we are bring forward what God desires.
Do the writters of the New Testament give credit to the sources they pull from? Just a question to think about?
Again I am all for giving credit where it is due.
Reference. Attribute. Always. Every single time. Without fail.
Why?
Because if you don’t, it will be discovered, and that has the postential to harm the cause of Christ. It’s SEEN as inappropriate.
Attribution and credit are not the same thing. Even when credit isn’t sought, attribution is still appropriate. It doesn’t diminish the message, or the messenger to acknowlege where material has come from.
Story I heard . . .
Benjamin Franklin was informed that his pastor was accused of “cribbing” sermons.
He responded, “I would rather hear something non-original yet beneficial, than ineffective originality.”
Don’t know if this is fictional, but the truth rings solid.
As a publisher we always appreciate someone asking permission before use. This helps us in a lot of ways and certainly clears any integrity issues quickly. Thanks for the great post.
Everyone is so long winded today..
I think post #36 sums it up well.
Galatians 1:10
It doesn’t diminish the message, or the messenger to acknowlege where material has come from.
Does it HELP the message or messenger. Not being mean so don’t receive it that way. Do you/we own your message? Do you/we want to own it?
my two mites…
I love that a church gives away its resources!
That is the heart of Christ!
The Biblical Counseling & Discipleship Ministry we lead is provided free of charge, choosing to trust fully in God’s providence.
I think large steps in faith are testimonies to the SUPERNATURAL work of God!
Philippians 4:19
I didn’t read every comment, so this might have already been said. Even if someone doesn’t want credit, it’s easy to say, “A friend said to me once…”. Obviously, if it’s something I read, and it wasn’t written by a friend, I would say, “Mr. X once wrote…”. Not that hard, and always welcome.
I try to always give credit. Even when quoting books. In addition to being honest, I think it communicates to your congregation that you ACTUALLY study.
That said, I don’t always give credit on “object lesson”-type illustrations. I think it breaks up the flow a little too much.
I do think it’s a bit of a disturbing trend that so many pastors are ONLY preaching other pastor’s material. I feel strongly that your church hired you partly because they want to hear what God is speaking to YOU about. To use someone else’s material occasionally is all well and good, but it disturbs me when this happens exclusively.
The job of the preacher is to be effective. Sometimes that means being inspired by or copying other thoughts or even sermons. (To me, it is harder to make someone else’s sermon my own than it is to write a whole new one) At LCC, we write sermons as a team and use other resources all we can. To avoid sounding like a college research paper and citing sources that few listeners would be able to identify we use a simple line printed at the bottom of each outline (we distribute outlines to each attendee). “All material (c) by __________. Some or all material may be from other sources and is used by permission.”
This communicates the concept that material is not necessarily original to LCC. People that care about the source will ask, and we fully disclose when asked.
Hey Craig,
I look forward to these posts all of the time and for some reason this one really struck a chord in me. There is a phrase “Nothing new under the sun” To me it doesn’t matter who said it first or who said it last. What matters is that lost people are being found and people are being healed from long time addictions. What matters is that marriages are being restored, the hungry fed, the naked clothed the list goes on and on. I feel that as long as we’re doing it and saying what we say from the pulpit with Love then that’s all that really matters. Jesus is coming back for the CHURCH that loves HIM and who is living out the great commission and the great commandment He’s not coming back for the best speaker, or the one who wrote the best message, not just your church or mine but all of us who are living out his passion. I pray for the day that we’ll be able to share and love like the church was intended to be. I don’t have any great messages that you could use but if I did you could use them all you want credit or no credit, I don’t deserve it. All glory and praises are due to the one who created us.
Keep doing what you’re doing! God is blessing you and LifeChurch.tv. Praying for you guys.
Steve
This is so sad we even have to talk about this….I mean it ALL comes from God. And I’m pretty sure God’s fine with it.
It just all stems down to people being confused about the point/purpose of it all…
In a few weeks, we are going to do the Warrior series that you guys did. It is going to give our creative team a break and the ability to get ahead.
Thanks for offering he resources that you do! Also, we will definitely give you credit!
Thanks for LifeChurch.tv’s great heart!
Newspring used LC’s intro video from Satan’s Sex Ed yesterday. I loved it.
The question you have to ask yourself if plagiarism within the church bothers you is this: Am I interested in building God’s kingdom, or mine?
my opinion is that in many churches the role of the pastor has changed so much. He/she no longer just preaches, now they council, run a business, build a building, raise money, etc—AND hopefully take care of their family—-i think some of these pressures have helped us get to where we are with using other’s materials. As long as it has integrity in the eyes of GOD who cares what man [mostly other christians]think. There is a way to do it with integrity.
There was a while in there when we were trying out new churches. It was amazing how many preachers were preaching the same subject matter that many of the preachers on the radio were preaching! There was one church in particular where are you had to do was listen to Charles Stanley through the week and you would know what the Pastor was going to preach about! He wasn’t taking it word for word but it felt like that pastor was just being lazy. I’m all for sourcing and there’s nothing wrong with quoting but I would be completely against canned sermons.
I use a LOT of open materials at my young adult service and I don’t announce every week that I get the stuff from a resource page. But when people ask me about where we get our intros and graphics I just keep it honest and talk about that awesome church in OK that gives their stuff away so that Pastors like me don’t have to learn aftereffects.
Maybe this debate is why God cannot trust many with truly effective messages….with unlimited resources…and success…selah
I like the idea of creating a culture where it’s well-known that you get some of your ideas, content, and inspiration from other places. It shows you are at least researching. Studying and time with God are still important. Hopefully that shows through, and hopefully we are all incorporating those pieces in our prep as well.
I never had an original idea. :)
My view: It’s Gods…not the prophet’s (the person who speaks what God has put on his heart). Treat it like the Word. No one SHOULD have to cite who they are quoting/repeating. I say it’s awesome if they do it out of respect, but I say it is detestable if someone is told they need to in order to give credit to a person…
It’s not about us, it’s about Him. Bottom line.
As a worship leader I am curious to know if Jared would believe the same for songwriters. Just because I write a Christian song does that mean that anyone should be able to perform/record it as their own under the umbrella of “It belongs to God”. Personally I think that’s really dicey territory.
Erik Germesin,
I agree. When people ask, I give full credit where credit is due.
I would also like to recommend http://www.newspring.cc where Perry Noble is lead Pastor. They have some awesome resources as well and they are all free.
Craig,
We are using the My Secret Series and I just want to thank you and LC.tv Many lives were changed this Sunday. God gets all the glory.
By the way we are also asking our people to visit MySecret.tv We set up prayer stations with Laptops for people 18 and over to visit the site. We don’t have to give credit to that. It is pretty obvious when you visit the site. Thanks again for all you do for the Kingdom.
I’ve been doing this (speaking every week) for years - I’m over 50. That means I’ve been hanging out with and talking to other guys in the ministry for years. The only difference today from the 70s and 80s is that it is more likely that some people in your church may have heard your “source material”. Now we have podcast and way more Christian TV and radio and Christian people in your church might have heard it. Preachers have been taking material from other preachers and not giving credit forever. I will say this I have never met a person who doesn’t know Jesus who cares who wrote the message. Lost people come to our churches because they are hurting and lost and are looking for something… when we introduce them to Jesus they don’t care who wrote the introduction. Only “christians” care about this.
KURT…NOW THAT IS ORIGINAL!!!!!
Craig,
Great topic. I noticed that you gave credit and honor to Andy Stanley for the series: “How to Be Rich”. I thought it was done with class.
I think the most important thing for pastors is to be effective. I heard Rick Warren (notice my reference:) say one time: “A said he’d be original or nothing. He ended up being both.”
I think there is a balance in using material. And — I look forward to the discussion this week.
Let’s also keep in mind that the vast majority of pastors in the world do not have a formal education — many are bi-vocational — and out of a pure heart to move the kingdom of God forward, they use the best material they can possibly find to feed their flocks.
I’ve just spent an hour reading over and copying all of the good one-liners from this thread - I’m gonna use them all and not give any of you credit!!!
Ok… maybe not.
Great subject - with some seriously passionate responses. I love it! Thanks Craig!
Interesting! I think everyone has very good points here. Here’s something else to think about though. Craig, if you as a senior pastor visited another church and found that their guest services volunteers were doing something to the next level; something your volunteers weren’t doing….would you take what you learned and implement it at your church? And if so, would you give credit to the other church when people compliment your improvements? Was that too long-winded? Sorry, it’s late! In other words, the sermon isn’t the only way a church reaches the lost. In other ministries within the church, not just the main service, is it ok to “copy cat” without giving credit to the church who gave you the idea?
In my pastoring experiences, I relied upon other pastors’ works when I was writing messages. They had far more insight and experience than I did, and would tell others to use their material as long as the pastors did not site their source. I put time and effort into it so as to make it my own as much as possible. Of course, commentaries were helpful too. And those are others’ writings as well.
Craig,
Sorry, I came late to the discussion.
You said:
It isn’t plagiarizing if you’re given permission.
This is incorrect. Try that line of reasoning in the academic world. If a college student buys a term paper from another individual who gives them permission to use the term paper and then turns in the term paper to their professor that they bought with permission. If the professor discovers that they turned in someone else’s work then it is still plagiarism. Plagiarism is not tied with permission. It is an integrity issue. Pastors should credit their sources whether or not the original author desires credit or not.
read this:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/2006/1623_What_is_plagiarism/
This is helpful.
All preachers need to simply embrace this truth- giving credit where credit is due only makes us look better! It shows we are thoughtful, engaged, well-researched and connected to the large body of Christ. Referencing a few sources actually gives us more authority from the “pulpit.” Plagiary has to be one of the most foolish and unnecessary traps to fall into.
Sam -
You would be correct if pastors were presenting academic papers, but they are not. _Every_ field has their own standards of plagiarism, based on what they are trying to accomplish. For instance, in writing a proposal to my boss, it is not plagiarism if I got the idea from a book, and then used that as the basis of my proposal. In academia it is. The difference is that the _point_ of academia is to know _where_ ideas come from, and be able to trace their origin, and give people proper credit, and understand how lines of thinking arose. In preaching, the _point_ is to change lives. Therefore, if you cite a source in a sermon, it should probably be for one of three reasons: (a) you want to substantiate a claim that others might not believe if they didn’t know the source, (b) you want to give explicit public thanks to the person who provided the material, or (c) you want to alert the people listening to where they can find more of that kind of material.
If you don’t believe that academic and non-academic writing each have different standards for plagiarism, all you have to do is look at a book that started out as someone’s thesis and was converted into a popular book. The thesis will contain, at minimum, several hundred references. The popular book probably won’t contain more than 20. And then, if you compare the book to a lecture on the same subject by the same author, you will find that the reference list goes down to between 1 and 5. This does not mean that the popular book or lecture is now guilty of plagiarism, it just means that when you are writing a popular book, the standards for plagiarism change dramatically based on what sort of media you are using, what field you are in, who your audience is, and what the purpose of your communication is.
Hi,
Well, it all depends on your theology of the Word of God, doesn’t it? When I speak during worship, I have just prayed, not my words but yours or something of that order. When our people pray that prayer, 1) do we mean it or are we just told that it’s a nice little thing to say 2) does it happen–does indeed the Lord’s Word get spoken. If so, then the reference belongs to the Lord, which most all of us do in prayer anyway.
I bet there will be a ton of people who disagree with me, but if a pastor has prayed, “Not my Word but yours” then the entire content of the following SHOULD not be credited to a pastor.
Now, if you want to say, “I heard a sermon where the Word of the Lord so excited me that I wanted to run back to you guys and share the Word I heard” then fine.
But however a pastor “does it” if that little prayer not mine but yours has been prayed, then there should be no plagarizing charge ever.
Or maybe we should stop praying that prayer.
Have fun tearing it up–I can take it!
Jay
Craig, Many times I want to contribute to the discussion, but see 66 comments have already been made, and I think, “Nuff said.” You’ve sure opened a hornet’s nest with this one. It doesn’t bother me in the least to hear a pastor using content gleaned from someone else, but I agree whole heartedly that credit must be given. I am currently looking for a new church to serve, and candidated with a congregation a few weeks ago. I was not called there (I didn’t get enough votes), and was told one of the reasons was I taught from my laptop. I keep my notes in a PowerPoint format, and just hit the “next” button when I’m ready to advance. This is a lot easier than shuffling papers. Some of the people there assumed I was preaching from the Internet, and they didn’t like that. I think it’s better to explain than have people get the wrong idea.
It’s great to see more open discussion on this issue. I found it strange to be reading this within 3 hours of learning that in November, Zondervan is releasing “Should We Use Someone Else’s Sermon? - Preaching In a Cut and Past World” by Scott M. Gibson.
I was devastated the day we were listening to a Bill Hybels teaching tape on a road trip and my wife realized it had been used word-for-word by our pastor. But we said nothing for a year. The pattern continued apparently, and the pastor got found out by some people who were not as gracious as we. When it hit the fan, so to speak, we were safely in another church.
Judy… I think this discussion is not so much about the creator of the material, or who owns it, or who wants to own it. It’s about the person using the material, and ultimately how they are received.
Use of material unattributed can be a huge barrier to the reception, and ultimately the emotional and intellectual integration of that message by the person hearing it.
Simply put… you can put someone off very easily by not attributing.
seems like Paul (the guy who wrote a bunch of NT books) was always spreading credit around to as many people as he could (he mentioned 10 other people in just 25 verses of Philemon). i try to follow his example:
- always give credit to someone whether i use their actual work or their work sparked my idea
- always look for a way to give away credit to as many people as possibl
i think this reflects a “team” mentality far more than using someone else’s material as my own, just ‘cuz we’re on the same team.
I agree it’s good to give credit, but I don’t think people should gripe when we don’t…
But again, post #36 has my views summed up. We should because we don’t want us, by not doing so, to have Christ or anything to do with Him looked down upon
Kirk…
“Use of material unattributed can be a huge barrier to the reception, and ultimately the emotional and intellectual integration of that message by the person hearing it.”…..HUH????????..HUGE BARRIER???
I guess the bottom line to my HEART ISSUE with this blog, is do we not teach, preach, write books, sing songs, you fill in the blank, so that people will then take what they learn and tell someone else, so that they will tell someone else, so that they will tell someone else, so that the WORLD WILL KNOW JESUS or do we do it for recognition… Should it put somone off if we don’t give credit ..for real
Paul…you actually left a church because the Pastor preached Bill Hybels material…that is amazing to me..Bill Hybels is incredible
how can a sermoin be ’someone’s’? that’s like saying ‘this church is mine’ or even ‘this car is mine’ - sill at best
thus the great divide created by pastors between the Spirit and the god called ‘religion’
sad to see so many pastors so protective of their little god kingdom - i hate to tell ya’ll this, but your kingdom is quite imaginary
I have been taught things by God that morning and had the pastor speak on the same subject at service!! I would sit amazed thinking “He stole my idea”, then I thought gee I guess there are some universal issues we all face. I don’t give a hoot who ya heard it from, If God layed it on the persons heart to talk on a topic a pastor heard from another,why not. I can benifit. So can other believers. Then is that wrong. Afterall, we just need to get the word out to every person possible. God inspired it all to me.
I came really late into this discussion. Obviously this is a touchy subject. My questions is why Craig asked it in the first place?
Personally, my view is that I would want to be as transparent as possible. That is what attracted me to Craig and his style in the first place. I think the only reason we (as ministers) use other peoples messages is because we get so wrapped up in other things that we run out of time to create our own and we are afraid to do so because we worry that our sermon won’t be “edgy” or “relevant” enough. In the age of the “communicator” and “environments” I am afraid as ministers we have shifted the focus to the performance standard rather than the personal touch. One thing I am always reminded of is this…everything is just a tool. It never replaces our authentic time with God and our calling. I find that the sermons that I have preached that touched the most people (from what I could tell) came pouring out of about 10 minutes of deep soul searching and prayer and some word study. Personally I just live by the motto, “Give credit where credit is due”. I have heard other pastors preach other peoples sermons and skip over so much of the meat and then not even cite the sources that were designed to go with that sermon. I even actually asked one pastor and they replied that they didn’t want people to go listen to the sermon on the other churches site because then they would see the other sermons that he might preach. When he said that, I didn’t know what to say.
I think that you, Craig, set a great example of ministry for others. You come across as a very genuine, humble and transparent man who leads by example and desires to further Gods kingdom with the utmost integrity.
But in the end…what do I know. I only have his “words” to gauge him by.
Keep in mind this is coming from a 26 year old seminary (cemetary) student…so take it for what its worth. :)
[...] For every uptight church legalists who still thinks that their pastor has never used another pastor’s idea/sermon/outline. [...]
Craig wrote, “A pastor might hear a great message, and it sparks something that comes to life in him”…who triggered that spark? The Holy Spirit? Hopefully all pastors are connected enough to seek the Lord for fresh bread to share with their folks. Ripping off another’s sermon because you haven’t done your own homework seeking God isn’t acceptable even if there is permission to use the work. Sharing because another work got you pumped and draws you closer to God is good but try not to use it all and inject what God gives to you to add and embellish the original work. “One sows one waters and one reaps…” (used with permission ;o)
[...] Groeschel, who gives his sermons away on the Internet for free says, “It isn’t plagiarizing if you’re given permission,” and also agrees that “just because it isn’t plagiarizing doesn’t always mean you [...]
I served under a pastor who plagiarized EVERY sermon. I’m not talking about using thoughts, quotes, and points. I mean even using the original authors personal life experiences as his own. As a pastor myself, I will say that everything that we know we’ve learned it from somewhere. Weather in our personal study and/or by hearing someone else preach it. I don’t see anything wrong with using someone else material, but if a pastor is too busy to study for himself and put together a message, then he’s way too busy. I know everyone has their own opinion. If a minister hears a message that impacts them greatly and believes it is meant for their/a congregation so be it. I also believe in giving credit where credit is due, but I can’t tell you how many times I used the same points, quotes, stories, etc. that I’ve heard from various ministers, sometimes you can’t actually pinpoint who the main source is. It’s all by discretion. Pastors need to study the Word for themselves so that it will be preached/taught with conviction.
My pastor used one of LC’s sermons from 30 days to live…word by word and did not site it. He even went as far as saying when I was on a subway in Europe and went into the same exact story, same everything. I have never looked at our church the same. He continues to use LC’s material as his own and it bothers me. It doesn’t bother me that he uses LC material…I think that’s awesome but it does bother me that he doesn’t cite it. To me he is lying and does so on a regular bases.