Johnny B, Thanks for seeing things from a different perspective. You caused me to do the same. I didn’t intend my post to be an encouragement to others to do the same. I can see how it might inadvertently do so. I’ll try to be more careful.

This is really the last time I’ll respond to you on this. (Today is my day off and my wife will kill me if I’m playing on the blog.) :)

Craig didn’t push a single one of those 500 out the door. Craig did state the times and reasons he did tell someone they had to leave. That is personal in that he had to make a decision, and I bet each one of them hurt.

I don’t know if Craig remembers me, but if it’s possible to push his button and make him see red dark rage, I bet I managed it. Just by being who I was, admitting to what I’d done. Despite his personal feelings on this issue, he let me become a member of his church 6 years ago. His staff did everything they could to make me a part of that church. At the time, I felt they failed me. I’ve come to realize that if it was a lack of experience, resources or time that made me feel unwanted and isolated, I could have held fast and given them and God a chance. I failed. I didn’t give them a reason to ask me to leave. I fled

I don’t believe I’m saved, but that’s a completely different issue. I do believe in God, and have been around enough Christians to believe this; If you are feeling bitter about something a Pastor did, it’s not of God.

Just the statement “A leader who continued in adultery and wouldn’t end his sinful relationship” should make you stop and think about what a pastor might go through on a personal level when it’s a leader at issue.

If you’re going to be angry at somebody because Craig pushed 500 people out of God’s church, and you don’t think that was God’s will, then you should be really angry at God. This guy pushes 500 people out of God’s church, and not only do the seats fill back up, but Lifechurch keeps growing and growing and growing…man, is God not paying attention or what? I’m betting on or what.

Personally, I’m getting a little ticked off at Craig. I’ve posted several times now with what I clearly felt were at least implied glad-handing, and do I get a single attaboy from him?? I mean, what does it take to suck up to this guy?

Thank you for a more respectful comment.

This is the last time I will respond to you on this subject.

I understand you had a bad experience. You disagreed with the vision and left your previous church on good terms. That’s mature of you and the pastor.

I’ve been a pastor for seventeen years and I’ve done this one time. I did it because I believe God led me to do it. Kyle (our first comment) was there and saw it as a very positive experience. I received “thank you” notes from many people who left and that day helped unite many churches.

To the best of my knowledge, no one left angry. They heard my passionate plea to plug into a part of the body of Christ.

Remember, I’m not celebrating people leaving our church. I told people if this wasn’t the place for them, here are some other churches that might be great places for them to grow and serve. I believe God is honored by that kind of Kingdom mindset. You seem to disagree. That’s fine.

I pray you are blessed and that your friends who are confused will find healing and restoration.

Did you know the heart and motives of all 500 people that left your church? Could it be that some of them left disillusioned and confused and not better off like you describe? Where does God’s will fit in all of this? Did you ever question why so easy for 500 people to just leave, why are they there to begin with? Could they be there for the wrong reasons and do you take any resposibilty for that? When is it time for the Pastor to leave?

I speak from experience, I faithfully attended and served in a church just like yours. We made it our church home in area we had no family or friends. We “plugged in” like we were encouraged to. But slowly we noticed the “vision” of the Pastor growing and growing being fed by conferences, church growth books, etc In our opinion, the “vision” became a monster to the extent we could no longer support it. (yes I talked with him and we have no hard feelings and I consider him my friend) However, now I have a very confused family that left a bunch of friends behind. It doesn’t have to be that way. The church of Jesus Christ and the word of God are larger then any “vision” revealed to man. If pastors remain focused on their calling that Scripture spells out I can’t imagine a situation where there will be a mass exodus of 500 people. Guys like you, who have large ministries don’t realize the influence you have on other young Pastors. It really bothers me when I see comments that follow a post like this that are “high fiving” each other because people left their church. I can’t imagine this pleases God.

Just a thought, instead of saying it was good for our church that 500 people left put it this way. It was good for our church that the John Doe family and the Jones family left. When you put a name to it it’s not as easy, is it?

To my knowledge, we didn’t put ONE of your comments through, not MOST, as you said. We didn’t accept it through because your tone was rude. We’ll gladly have constructive discussion and are not afraid of opposing views. I will not allow this blog to become a place with rude attacks. Any of your comments with a harsh tone will be deleted. The same is true for anyone who attacks you.

I’m not sure how you can say that I pushed people out. You weren’t there. The day was an special day for our church and the others who were there. We boldly showed that we know our church is not the only or best in town. We encouraged people to go where they could be most passionate and make a difference. If raising numbers was my goal, I would have done everything possible to keep people there.

I understand how you could misunderstand the intent. Be careful not to judge my heart and motives when you obviously don’t know them.

You are welcome to continue in the discussion if you are respectful.

“Don’t worry so much about language Johnny. Go beyond the words. Worry about the deeds. -:”

The deeds were Craig pushed 500 people out of God’s church. Is this dude a god or something? After reading all these comments (ALL of them focused on numbers and none of them questioning if they’re obeying God) and most of mine not being published I’m certain I’m closer to the truth then when I started.

“But to make critical comments from the cheap seats seems weak to me.”

Again, let’s not consider wether it’s true or not let’s just label it “critical”. What’s weak is so called “strong leadership” sheltering themselves from any negativity.

Email me if you’d like, ottobord@aol.com, I’ll give you my phone # and we can talk.

Johnny
I was recently talking to a friend who didn’t like my words I used of a certain pastor from Kyev in Ukraine. I said, “He [the pastor] planted many churches” My friend said I should use biblical language. He corrected me: “You mean ‘GOD planted many churches’” I said to him that he was right. Do you see my point in light of your quote from Paul: “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.â€?

I’d like Lifechurch.tv to be MY church. Do you sense the ambiguity? Do you see what my intention is?

There is another level of lexical ambiguity in “You can grow YOUR church by asking people to leaveâ€?. This pertains to the singularity and plurality of expression. This can easily be reflected in the Polish language by two distinct determiners. Can you sense it? Do you know what Craig’s intention was?
Don’t worry so much about language Johnny. Go beyond the words. Worry about the deeds. -:)
Thank you for your comment. Blessings,
MM

Better analogy is it’s his flock. The shepherd may not own any of the sheep he tends, but you can dang well bet the owner isn’t gonna buy that excuse if he does a lousy job of tending them.

I think maybe John 6 starting in verse 60 would apply…when Jesus spoke about God’s vision and it says…many left.

I thought a while about replying (the whole Proverbs 26 thing…didn’t know to use vs 4 or 5)…I don’t wish to argue really. I am not defending Craig, because he doesn’t need me to defend him. Intellectual debate is great, but to argue without the intent to understand and possibly accept someone else’s view seems fruitless.

I definitely don’t want this to become a negative blog. Because I can’t stand them and will not continue to read it.

Lastly, I am not hiding who I am or what ministry I belong to. Neither is Craig. But to make critical comments from the cheap seats seems weak to me.

This is the last I respond to this. I really wish you the best.

2 visions = division