Leaving the Church 3 (of 4)
One year I taught on our church’s vision. I boldly but lovingly asked everyone to “sell out to Christ through a local church.” If it was at Life, great! But if they couldn’t fully buy into the vision, I asked them to find another church.
I explained that in the lobby, I had brochures from ten other churches in town that I recommended. (I had relationships with these pastors and completely trusted their leadership.)
The next week, we had about 500 new seats for people who could get excited about the vision. Within a short period of time, God filled those seats with passionate people. Many of those who left our church found great, biblical churches where they could worship and use their gifts.
Everybody won!
That’s why I sometimes say, “You can grow your church by asking people to leave.”
Visit 
I remember that particular Sunday well. I remember being both shocked and impressed. Here’s what it did for me:
1) Challenged me to rethink “Why am I here?”
2) Inspired me to do more of my part in helping lead people to become fully devoted followers of Christ.
3) Helped me appreciate the community of believers at Life rather than taking them for granted.
Plus, I’m sure most of those who left were cat-lovers anyway. ;) Just kidding!
Craig,
I wonder if you’re willingness to help people leave (i.e. advertising for other local churches in your foyer) is because of the size of Lifechurch.tv. You can afford to lost people.
Wouldn’t this be harder for the pastor of a smaller ministry? Would it still be wise?
I’m a student ministry pastor of about 60 teenagers, and if I put out flyers for 10 great student ministries in the area, I might be preaching to my wife and 3 freshmen next week.
I am intrigued by the strong feelings and responses to these posts on “Leaving the Church”. No doubt the issue of people moving from one church to another will always elicit controversy. I imagine it is difficult not to see it as personal rejection, even when you know that people change and so do their needs and indeed what they have to offer.
I once served on the pastoral staff of a large, influential church, and I remember my senior pastor as having the greatest skills in making it easy for people to move on if they needed to. In fact, I recall him “assisting” some people move on who were disgruntled and disillusioned with the way things were going.
Recognizing that they were unhappy, and realizing that they were infecting others with their attitude, rather than tell them how much of a headache they were causing by their negative attitude, he politely explained that he didn’t possess the skills necessary to be an effective pastor for them. He suggested that there were churches in the community with pastors that were better equipped to provide for their needs, and so he “encouraged” them to consider changing churches. This approach seemed to work wonderfully well, as it was hard for them to remain and continue to be negative.
Craig,
You are CRAZY man!!!!! In a good way, though. I can imagine how the conversation would go over in most churches if they lost 500 people in one week.
Pastor (to his staff): “Well, guys, we did something to offend people. Here’s a list of people that are gone, let’s try and get ahold of them to see what we did to offend them. If this trend continues, we’re going to have to start laying people off, and I don’t want that. Gosh, I just don’t get it. I don’t understand. Why in the world would 500 people leave? Anybody have any ideas? Do we want to give away a big screen TV to get people back next week?”
And it goes on and on.
But to purposefully have 500 seats open up? WOW! Craig, you’re an innovator. Thanks for looking at things from a totally whacked perspective. It’s scary, but encouraging at the same time to know that there are leaders out there who are actually leading the way.
Still in disbelief,
Jeremy
Craig,
The reason I admire you, is because of your boldness to just simply be REAL and to rely on God. Has it become easier giving those vision talks? After meeting you at the ARC conference I knew you were truly a man of God. Could you let us in your prayer closet and tell us how you have become so confident in your calling and in Life Church. I think one of the largest problems for the lack of growth in Church today, is lack of vision…..and I believe most Pastors started with vision but eventually drifted because they were not confident enough in their calling and that God will build his Church. What has helped you become confident?
Bryan, I have been waiting for your question all week. :)
(I’ll respond to the other comments and questions later… heading into a meeting.)
You said, “I wonder if you’re willingness to help people leave (i.e. advertising for other local churches in your foyer) is because of the size of Lifechurch.tv. You can afford to lost people.”
When the church had 100 people coming, we had a handful of small groups meeting. One wasn’t small… it was huge with 30 people. The leader was teaching stuff that I believed was wrong and dangerous. After multiple meetings and his refusal to align with our church’s theology and vision, I shut down the group and lost about 1/3 of the church.
(Years later the leader asked for my forgiveness we are friends.)
This may have been the scariest decision I’ve made as a leader.
Yes this would be harder for a leader with a small ministry. And yes in some cases it would be unwise. It takes serious prayer and discernment to know when to make the tough calls.
Don’t knock your student ministry. If you SINCERELY promoted other student ministries, you might lose some or you might light a “kingdom fire” under those who are there.
I’m not telling you or anyone to do what I did. More so, be confident in what God is doing where you are!
Bryan
I’m not sure how Craig will respond, but just my two cents. I understand where your coming from, but it’s always been my impression that the number of people that are on board with the vision or off is always relative to the size of the group. It seems to me like under the same leadership a group of 1,000 may have 700-800 on board and in a group of 100 the same leader would have 70-80. I think there are a lot of variables that affect whether 98% are with you or 70%, but the percentages seem to hold, no matter the size of their group. In Craig’s situation, I tend to think that if he made those statements early on when their group was smaller that the percentage of people that left would be similar. just a thought
Okay, Craig. I’ll give it a try. Tonight I’m going to suggest to my students that they might be better served elsewhere. I’ll hand out flyers to First United Methodist, Cherry Point Baptist, and the new storefront church down the street. After my pastor fires me, I’ll be calling you for a job!
(Kidding…I actually agree with you. It’s just not as fun to type or to read “You’re so right, Craig”)
Not the first time I’ve been wrong :)
The mindset of encouraging people to leave, giving away ministry materials, partnering with churches, partnering with pastors…… is the foundation of “Kingdom Building.” When we realize that it’s not about us, it makes it more comfortable to “Get Out of The Boat.”
Bryan, You’re cracking me up!
Joshua, Thanks for your kind words. You asked, “Could you let us in your prayer closet and tell us how you have become so confident in your calling and in Life Church.”
Great question. When I seek God in prayer, He often reveals my impurities (selfish nature, greed, competitive spirit etc.). I fight against so many impurities.
I try to force myself to do what is RIGHT instead of what benefits ME or our ministries. God seems to bless that.
Doing the RIGHT thing is often the scariest thing. Sometimes I have to do what is RIGHT long before my heart embraces it. My feelings often follow my actions. Hope that makes sense.
I have no problem with people leaving…I just want to pick which ones…
I like what I heard Doug Fields say one time, “I don’t want more teenagers–just different ones.”
All of this is being silly of course…well maybe not completely.
As a matter of fact Bryan…if any of your students leave as a result of your telling them of other options, I will send you some of mine to replace them. I get to pick which ones though ;o). I love it when ministries work together.
[...] This might sound counterintuitive, but Craig Groeschel at LifeChurch.tv has a series of articles on getting folks to leave your church. Groeschel suggests that if folks aren’t behind your vision or mission and moving your church forward then they’re dead weight. Groeschel says he preached the church’s vision in an attempt to get everyone on board. If people weren’t on board with the vision, he asked them to find another church. He even offered brochures from 10 other churches he knew and recommended. It was a serious challenge and 500 people ended up leaving. I boldly but lovingly asked everyone to “sell out to Christ through a local church.â€? If it was at Life, great! But if they couldn’t fully buy into the vision, I asked them to find another church. The next week, we had about 500 new seats for people who could get excited about the vision. Within a short period of time, God filled those seats with passionate people. Many of those who left our church found great, biblical churches where they could worship and use their gifts. Everybody won! That’s why I sometimes say, “You can grow your church by asking people to leave.â€? [...]
<set prophet=”on”>
Why are we so terrified of letting people go? I imagine we all agree it’s up to God to provide the increase. I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve had a life built on “what I could do.” Frankly, I was too stressed to maintain it all the time. All the pressure was on me and my performance. I’d much rather surrender that responsibility… to where it belongs.
<set prophet=”off”>
IMHO, the struggle with this issue is centered around “leaning to my own understanding.” Like Jeremy said, it’s “CRAZY” to talk about “helping” people leave your church. I’ve heard Erwin McManus say before (I’m paraphrasing), “If you start hearing God talk to you, and you tell anybody about it, they’ll think you’re crazy. And if you start to actually do the things that voice tells you to do… Well, then they’ll know you’re crazy.”
And people are crazy for lesser things.
;-D
“You can grow your church by asking people to leave”
Hmmmm …… so it’s “your” church. Hmmmm
I don’t think that Craig is saying that the church revolves around him rather that he has ownership in what God is doing there.
Was Paul in sin when he refered to the message of salvation as his gospel. I don’t feel he was–but he was willing to give his life for it.
I think it’s funny of all that has been said…you chose to focus on that…
God’s best to you man.
Paul also chose his words carefully when he said,
“I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”
Maybe you can help me understand why people are being asked to “buy into the vision” or leave? Better yet can you show me that idea in the Bible, perhaps one of the NT Churches.
So can we have a peek at that list of ten churches you recommend?
I thank God for the opportunity this blog allows all of us…it’s so wonderful being able to learn from Craig and Bobby in a real and personal way. It would be a shame if all of us had to spend 2 hours, writing our thoughts hoping that we didn’t place any word out of context. Hey I’m sure if i didn’t like what was being said in this blog I would just find another blog to chime in on….Vision is everything! If I didn’t like the vision than I clearly would only bring division.
2 visions = division
Joshua, Glad the blog helps. Thanks.
OK JohnnyB…
I think maybe John 6 starting in verse 60 would apply…when Jesus spoke about God’s vision and it says…many left.
I thought a while about replying (the whole Proverbs 26 thing…didn’t know to use vs 4 or 5)…I don’t wish to argue really. I am not defending Craig, because he doesn’t need me to defend him. Intellectual debate is great, but to argue without the intent to understand and possibly accept someone else’s view seems fruitless.
I definitely don’t want this to become a negative blog. Because I can’t stand them and will not continue to read it.
Lastly, I am not hiding who I am or what ministry I belong to. Neither is Craig. But to make critical comments from the cheap seats seems weak to me.
This is the last I respond to this. I really wish you the best.
I am the pastor of a small church and while I haven’t handed out brochures for other churches and encouraged them to leave we have lost a number of people who were not on board with our vision and direction as a church since I became pastor. When I became pastor we were averaging a little more than 80 right now we are in the low 60’s. We have had a number of people leave who had been part of our church for a long time but were not in agreement with where we were going as a church and I have not tried to talk in any of them into staying. I’ve had conversations with most of them and when it became clear that we were not on the same page I have encouraged them to find somewhere to attend where they could enjoy worshiping on a Sunday Morning.
Many people in our small church don’t understand that, they see every member of our church as part of their family and feel like we should go out and try to convince these people to stay, but if we are going to be successful at doing what God has called us to do we all need to be on the same page.
Johnny B said: “Hmmmm …… so it’s “yourâ€? church. Hmmmm”
Better analogy is it’s his flock. The shepherd may not own any of the sheep he tends, but you can dang well bet the owner isn’t gonna buy that excuse if he does a lousy job of tending them.
I had to chuckle when I read all of these comments. 1 1/2 years ago I was on staff at a growing thriving church. Our pastor told folks we needed their seats if they weren’t on board with our vision and direction. In a years time we had 500 people leave out of 900 and all of the staff left including the senior pastor.
Why you may ask? The Elders suddenly “woke up” (their words) and decided they didn’t agree with the staff for telling people to leave. Today that church has 300 people attending is very happy and dead as a door nail. The rest of us are doing great things for God all over the country.
God is good . . . all the time.
Wow! This is so powerful Craig. I’m so much stronger having read this post.
Johnny
I was recently talking to a friend who didn’t like my words I used of a certain pastor from Kyev in Ukraine. I said, “He [the pastor] planted many churches” My friend said I should use biblical language. He corrected me: “You mean ‘GOD planted many churches’” I said to him that he was right. Do you see my point in light of your quote from Paul: “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.â€?
I’d like Lifechurch.tv to be MY church. Do you sense the ambiguity? Do you see what my intention is?
There is another level of lexical ambiguity in “You can grow YOUR church by asking people to leaveâ€?. This pertains to the singularity and plurality of expression. This can easily be reflected in the Polish language by two distinct determiners. Can you sense it? Do you know what Craig’s intention was?
Don’t worry so much about language Johnny. Go beyond the words. Worry about the deeds. -:)
Thank you for your comment. Blessings,
MM
I know this won’t get published I really don’t care.
“Don’t worry so much about language Johnny. Go beyond the words. Worry about the deeds. -:”
The deeds were Craig pushed 500 people out of God’s church. Is this dude a god or something? After reading all these comments (ALL of them focused on numbers and none of them questioning if they’re obeying God) and most of mine not being published I’m certain I’m closer to the truth then when I started.
“But to make critical comments from the cheap seats seems weak to me.”
Again, let’s not consider wether it’s true or not let’s just label it “critical”. What’s weak is so called “strong leadership” sheltering themselves from any negativity.
Email me if you’d like, ottobord@aol.com, I’ll give you my phone # and we can talk.
Johnny B.,
To my knowledge, we didn’t put ONE of your comments through, not MOST, as you said. We didn’t accept it through because your tone was rude. We’ll gladly have constructive discussion and are not afraid of opposing views. I will not allow this blog to become a place with rude attacks. Any of your comments with a harsh tone will be deleted. The same is true for anyone who attacks you.
I’m not sure how you can say that I pushed people out. You weren’t there. The day was an special day for our church and the others who were there. We boldly showed that we know our church is not the only or best in town. We encouraged people to go where they could be most passionate and make a difference. If raising numbers was my goal, I would have done everything possible to keep people there.
I understand how you could misunderstand the intent. Be careful not to judge my heart and motives when you obviously don’t know them.
You are welcome to continue in the discussion if you are respectful.
I don’t think it was rude, I thought it was creative, funny, with a sarcastic twist to make a point, you should post it and let others decide, and for the record 2 of my comments were not published.
Craig,
Did you know the heart and motives of all 500 people that left your church? Could it be that some of them left disillusioned and confused and not better off like you describe? Where does God’s will fit in all of this? Did you ever question why so easy for 500 people to just leave, why are they there to begin with? Could they be there for the wrong reasons and do you take any resposibilty for that? When is it time for the Pastor to leave?
I speak from experience, I faithfully attended and served in a church just like yours. We made it our church home in area we had no family or friends. We “plugged in” like we were encouraged to. But slowly we noticed the “vision” of the Pastor growing and growing being fed by conferences, church growth books, etc In our opinion, the “vision” became a monster to the extent we could no longer support it. (yes I talked with him and we have no hard feelings and I consider him my friend) However, now I have a very confused family that left a bunch of friends behind. It doesn’t have to be that way. The church of Jesus Christ and the word of God are larger then any “vision” revealed to man. If pastors remain focused on their calling that Scripture spells out I can’t imagine a situation where there will be a mass exodus of 500 people. Guys like you, who have large ministries don’t realize the influence you have on other young Pastors. It really bothers me when I see comments that follow a post like this that are “high fiving” each other because people left their church. I can’t imagine this pleases God.
Just a thought, instead of saying it was good for our church that 500 people left put it this way. It was good for our church that the John Doe family and the Jones family left. When you put a name to it it’s not as easy, is it?
Johnny,
Thank you for a more respectful comment.
This is the last time I will respond to you on this subject.
I understand you had a bad experience. You disagreed with the vision and left your previous church on good terms. That’s mature of you and the pastor.
I’ve been a pastor for seventeen years and I’ve done this one time. I did it because I believe God led me to do it. Kyle (our first comment) was there and saw it as a very positive experience. I received “thank you” notes from many people who left and that day helped unite many churches.
To the best of my knowledge, no one left angry. They heard my passionate plea to plug into a part of the body of Christ.
Remember, I’m not celebrating people leaving our church. I told people if this wasn’t the place for them, here are some other churches that might be great places for them to grow and serve. I believe God is honored by that kind of Kingdom mindset. You seem to disagree. That’s fine.
I pray you are blessed and that your friends who are confused will find healing and restoration.
Johnny, I think Craig and Bobby have been pretty upfront about wanting constructive discussion and questioning of their posts. And I think you bring up some good questions in your last comment.
I can say from experience that LifeChurch is a place where there is an environment of making people feel comfortable and making people feel confronted. Every time that I have heard Craig speak on a challenging situation like buying into the vision (which is to lead people to become fully devoted followers of Christ) or not coming to church for entertainment, etc. it is done in a loving way that is focused on being authentic and following the teachings of Jesus. It’s pretty clear that it is not focused on a popularity contest or more speaking engagements. I know it’s easy to read into things and with the experience you mentioned, I definitely understand why people leaving can bring up the questions you have.
I just wanted to let you know that those confrontational times always make me re-evaluate my motives for attending church and keep my focus on God’s work not my own. I think it pleases God to see churches that support the work of other churches and not view it all as one big competition between each other. Things like partnering with other churches, ministries, and giving away all our messages, resources, etc. are all things that bring unity and build up the church as a whole.
I hope I’m not sounding too “rah-rah” about it all, but I can say with 100% certainty that I never get a egotistical, “my way” feeling from any of the staff at Life. No they’re not perfect and they’re quick to let us know that! But their heart, effort and purpose always points to Christ and His vision.
Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in:)
[...] Craig gives an example where he preached on the church’s vision trying to get everybody on board. If people weren’t on board with the vision, he asked them to find another church. He even offered brochures from 10 other churches he knew and recommended. It was a serious challenge and 500 people ended up leaving. Most people would freak out at that thought. Not Craig: The next week, we had about 500 new seats for people who could get excited about the vision. Within a short period of time, God filled those seats with passionate people. Many of those who left our church found great, biblical churches where they could worship and use their gifts. [...]
Thanks Craig maybe I pegged you wrong. I have stuck in my mind the thoughts of another Pastor who felt led to do something similar. When he talks about people leaving the church he compares it to, “everyone needs a good bowel movement once in awhile” From what your telling me your more sensitive then that. One final thought, I can’t argue with you when you say, “I did it because I believe God led me to do it”. I can respect that, sometimes God calls us to do the unusual. However, wouldn’t God make it just as clear to another Pastor if He was leading them to do something similar? If that’s the case they wouldn’t need your encouragement.
I’ve been really bemused by fact they’ve published every post I submitted here. Hey, I’ve even had it said of me that I’m usually humorous AND condemning in a lot of my posts, and yet they’ve posted them all.
Craig didn’t push a single one of those 500 out the door. Craig did state the times and reasons he did tell someone they had to leave. That is personal in that he had to make a decision, and I bet each one of them hurt.
I don’t know if Craig remembers me, but if it’s possible to push his button and make him see red dark rage, I bet I managed it. Just by being who I was, admitting to what I’d done. Despite his personal feelings on this issue, he let me become a member of his church 6 years ago. His staff did everything they could to make me a part of that church. At the time, I felt they failed me. I’ve come to realize that if it was a lack of experience, resources or time that made me feel unwanted and isolated, I could have held fast and given them and God a chance. I failed. I didn’t give them a reason to ask me to leave. I fled
I don’t believe I’m saved, but that’s a completely different issue. I do believe in God, and have been around enough Christians to believe this; If you are feeling bitter about something a Pastor did, it’s not of God.
Just the statement “A leader who continued in adultery and wouldn’t end his sinful relationship” should make you stop and think about what a pastor might go through on a personal level when it’s a leader at issue.
If you’re going to be angry at somebody because Craig pushed 500 people out of God’s church, and you don’t think that was God’s will, then you should be really angry at God. This guy pushes 500 people out of God’s church, and not only do the seats fill back up, but Lifechurch keeps growing and growing and growing…man, is God not paying attention or what? I’m betting on or what.
Personally, I’m getting a little ticked off at Craig. I’ve posted several times now with what I clearly felt were at least implied glad-handing, and do I get a single attaboy from him?? I mean, what does it take to suck up to this guy?
Jimmy, I’m sorry I don’t remember you. I’m sure I would if I saw you. I’m glad you’re talking with us on the blog. Thanks for sucking up! :)
Johnny B, Thanks for seeing things from a different perspective. You caused me to do the same. I didn’t intend my post to be an encouragement to others to do the same. I can see how it might inadvertently do so. I’ll try to be more careful.
This is really the last time I’ll respond to you on this. (Today is my day off and my wife will kill me if I’m playing on the blog.) :)
Thank you everybody for the discussion. I learnt a lot from it. -:)
Could you tell me where in the bible (KJV please) Jesus ever asked someone to leave. Thank you!
[...] Be kind as you explain to people that you are not going to change. If necessary help them find a local church that will be better suited to their desires (Craig Groeschel had a great idea here). [...]