Does God exist?
“Does God exist?” is a question I’m hearing more and more. Though it’s not something I hear all that often from people where I live, my new friends in other parts of the world are asking. It’s also becoming a more popular topic of discussion in media… Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are selling millions of books that would be considered atheist or even antitheist. I certainly know it’s not a new question… It just seems to be more of a mainstream point of view these days.
While in NYC this week, I had lunch with a friend and his wife. He has clearly expressed to me that he does not believe that God exists, but he is fascinated by our church and wants to understand why we do what we do. During lunch he asked, “If I come to LifeChurch.tv, what leap of faith would I have to take to be what you call ‘a follower of Christ’?” Without going into all the details with you, I explained that one of the first faith steps for him would be believing that God exists.
All of this leads me to ask this question of our church: “Are we assuming in our communication that people believe that God exists?” How about in your church?
Visit 
I believe when people step into a church - they know what they are going to hear - so to speak…ie God this and God that- so i think that when people hear the word church the automatically assume God. I know a number of people who will not step foot inside a church - because they truly, truly believe that God either does not exist - (and I am just fooling myself) or that God is SO angry at them for their sin they the church might “catch on fire” (honestly this is what a family memeber of mine says)… the only way i have found to have people soften to the idea that God is real is by my life, my walk with Jesus and my relationship with Him… so i really dont know if that answers the question but it is what i think…
i believe the christian church operates under that belief so it is presumed in the conversations and teaching but i’m not sure we should have the opinion that it is true of those who walk through the door or who we serve in the world. and i do not believe we can change or lessen our communication because of it.
it is a brick…just like jesus being the christ and being god. they are non-negotiables but just because they are does not mean we are not merciful to those who have not been so drawn by the holy spirit.
Bobby,
I would have to believe that nearly every ministry operates under the presumption that the individuals who walk through their doors have, at the very least, a fledgling belief in the existence of a “god” if not God.
Mainly, because why else would they be going to a church in the first place? If a church is “the place you to go learn about/worship/find refuge in God,” which is the common concept and association throughout modern society today, why would an individual enter a church if they did not believe in the existence of God unless they were coming to simply stir up trouble.
Since no one can absolutely prove or empirically convince anyone of the existence or non-existence of a spiritual, non-temporal Being within the boundaries of a physical, temporal world, can any ministry be adequately equipped to change the minds of such a non-theist if they came asking questions?
I would believe that the rather gray, non-simple answer is no. Yet our minds and reasons for believing in God should not be ignored or neglected because of it.
All that to say, I do not think it is a safe or even healthy assumption to have (that they believe in the existence of God) because it isolates such a ministry from identifying with the needs and mindset of any individual seeking help or guidance.
Sorry for the wordiness.
Good thoughts.
I did not mean to limit the scope of the question(s) to communication that happens “inside” the church building.
Michael…I am curious about your comment “i do not believe we can change or lessen our communication”…What do you mean by “lessen”?
Bobby:
Quite frankly, I don’t know how anybody can truly understand the extraordinary wisdom in The Bible without the Holy Spirit. Once you receive the Holy Spirit and surrender your heart to Christ, you realize that God exists and He is awesome and more powerful than our brains can ever imagine. You also realize that the Bible is not a book, but rather a Living person who is increasing day-by-day (John 3:30).
I really enjoyed seeing you and meeting Terry in CT. I’m looking forward to seeing you guys at the MIT Emerging Tech conference this fall.
Keep up the great work!
Agape,
steve
Even if we assumed that some people are atheist/agnostic, I’m doubtful of our ability to know how to engage that.
Before I had atheist friends, I wouldn’t have known how to talk about God to someone who didn’t believe in God.
The whole scope of the conversation changes radically.
So, no, I don’t think in general we assume there are some who don’t believe. And even if we did, I’m not confident that we would know how to engage in redemptive relationships with people who disbelieve/doubt God’s existence.
The good news is that’s not a hard thing to learn.
JG,
My friend from NYC would be an example of someone who would come to a church (online or physical) without any intention of causing problems. I would guess there are many people who don’t believe God exists, but are still curious as to why others do believe. The church building or church websites, etc. probably seem like a logical place to seek answers to those questions.
I like this line:
“He has clearly expressed to me that he does not believe that God exists, but he is fascinated by our church and wants to understand why we do what we do.”
Someone said that the best sermon is not the one you hear, but the one you see.
Thanks Bobby.
Bobby,
I certainly believe that a good amount of people come to church, hopefully, without any intention of causing problems, :). I hope I didn’t convey that there were none. I was trying to illustrate an unconscious thought process that underlies the majority of conversational approaches we often have in regard to ministry, both within the church’s walls and outside.
Most of my discussions simply imply the existence of God without me even realizing it until such a person says, “But that is assuming there is a God,” and I immediately have to redirect my efforts and thoughts. I think there are many, many people who don’t believe in God and are either curious as to why people do believe (searching for legitimate reasons) or amazed that people do believe with so little “proof.”
Your friend’s question is rather intriguing to me, Bobby. After firstly stating that he did not believe that God exists he is still curious as to why Lifechurch does what it does and what would be required to be a follower of Christ at Lifechurch. I’m interested as to what sparks his interest since the God equation, for him, is non-existent.
I think your friend poses a unique scenario and question unto himself. How would/could we minister to an individual who comes to church not at all interested in God but in how the church operates or in the motivations behind it?
I didn’t mean to limit the conversation to just inside the church either but a lot of people associate evangelism with the church building instead of every day life. I also didn’t mean to exclude genuine people seeking a rationale for why people believe in the existence of God.
Believing that God exists is only the first leap of faith that someone must make. Believing that Christ exists is a much more difficult leap of faith these days, IMHO. As conditional Christianity becomes the norm for the modern Church(again IMHO), as represented by those professing faith in a public manner, believing that the Christ of the Gospels exists, or that salvation matters, becomes more of a challenge. Observing the life of today’s modern believers leaves those trying to see the light of salvation as different from the darkness surrounding the unbeliever in something of a bemused state of mind. Why make the sacrifice if you don’t see a real difference in those who do confess to believe other than that some of the words that come out of their mouth sound religious? Could somebody please explain the difference to me between a “princess of the throne” and a really spoiled rotten brat? Sorry, too much America’s Top Model last night. Poor Monika. On the other hand, if no real sacrifice is required, other than learning certain rote phrases and herd like behaviors, why not make the claim of salvation? I mean, with Jessica Alba as a fashion example, even the “Christian” dress code is looking hot! Making the leap of faith to believe in THIS christ might not be so hard after all. A better question might be, how low a bar are you setting for them to leap to believe in? Or to quote the latest children’s Christian book title “digged” today: “Thanks For Dying Jesus, This Candy Is Awesome!” Oh cmon, you can’t expect the unbeliever not to judge you once you ask them to believe in “God”. You claim to be the embodiment of His savior on earth. The very reason why they should believe in God. The presumption that most unbelievers go to church because they have some belief in God is interesting. Wouldn’t it be more likely that they went because they were invited to go by a Church member? Believing that they have some reason to attend because of their interest in that person might be a better reason than to assume their sudden belief in a magical being suddenly paying attention to them just because they walked into a building. I’m sorry but none of yer buildings are Hogwarts. As for “The church building or church websites, etc. probably seem like a logical place to seek answers to those questions.”, logical maybe. The actual experience can be something else all together. Not to get too personal on you all, but while your Experiences can be fun, the Hare Krishna’s have better snacks. And the songs are easier to learn too since they only consist of two words.
I can speak as one who did not believe that God existed. I came to know Jesus as an adult at the age of 23. I can say that I did not even know a true follower of Christ. I met an individual who was different than anyone else I had known. She lived differently and saw God differently than anyone I had ever known. I really did not know that people lived like that. She did not try to “convince” me there was a God or that I should “have a personal relationship” with Jesus. She was just my friend.
For me to come to know the person of Jesus was not an intellectual exercise. It was an intimate encounter with the risen Christ. It was not an over night change for me either, it was more like a journey. A journey that I am still on.
So, when I talk to people about Jesus, I speak to them from personal experience of who Jesus is in my life and how the Way of Jesus is the best possible way to live.
I don’t try to convince anyone of anything and just love them with no agenda, no conditions, and no strings. I just invite them into my journey and let the Way the Truth and the Life do His thing.
Jimmy,
The Hare Krishnah have better snacks? Tell me it ain’t so.
As always, you bring an interesting perspective that is both humorous and condemning.
Combining Ryan’s post with yours…it reinforces that God’s existence is best evidenced in seeing Him in our lives and unfortunately is too often simply claimed with our voices.
bobby…i mean that we should not compromise the character of god by being affraid of communicating or by making god less for the ease of receiving by others.
i think there is a way to communicate effectively who god fully is and that he fully exists and not be on the offensive in our communications.
ultimately, our communications define our effectiveness.
it seems we often here a cheap grace or fear and dread, and in this pop culture, i think we seem to be struggling to find ways that people want to hear about god, so we only give them a glimpse.
christ just dealt with people like there was no other reality but that one god created. there is confidence and joy in that faith.
it’s interesting.
most folks outside the church are dealing more with the issue of what God is like, more than does God exist.
but i have personally seen an increase in evangelistic atheists like dawkins.
Michael,
Thanks for clarifying. I agree with what you are saying. However, I don’t think the solution involves removing “God” or watering down the message to make it less offensive to people who don’t believe God exists. It might mean that we have to add a little explanation or make sure people who don’t believe God exists feel welcome. What I didn’t share in my post was that my friend was uncertain that he would be welcome if he came.
Mark,
Great insight. Can you elaborate for the rest of the swerve readers on an example or two of what you are describing?
I came to faith in Jesus as God at the tail end of my undergraduate days attending the University of California at Berkeley, and I’ll tell you, the vast array of spiritual options the world proposes had already been well laid out to me, including atheism. I was in my fourth year as a chemistry major who’d studied a fair bit of biology, had attended the “Alternative Sexual Identities in 20th Century America” class, and read through a heaping helping of my hippy mom’s New Age and Sci-Fi library while home on breaks from school. Frankly, I was just exhausted by the seeming emptiness and randomness of the world.
No, you can’t assume that everybody who walks in the door believes in God. At the same time, you also can’t respond by constantly defending His existence when even HE doesn’t in his own Word. The proverbs and psalms both refer to atheists as fools, not because of lack of intelligence, but for unequivocally cutting themselves off from the only source of true joy, peace, happiness… all the fruit of the spirit.
However, what might be more useful is to remember that the great majority of “modern” people in this world, whether they “believe” in God or not, live their lives under a kind of functional atheism. When you find religious hypocrites, you’ve found atheists, too.
Just assume that people walking in the door who haven’t shown the fruit of the spirit don’t really believe in God. The only other thing to really remember are the people who DO believe in the supernatural, and who are always messing around with it through some kind of New Age-ey stuff. I was like this in my youth: either convinced of our spiritual isolation in the universe, of being only so much walking meat, or totally in love with the idea of a spiritual reality that was invisible but with which we could interact.. and control. Either way is proud and foolish, and cuts us off from God. Point to Jesus, and pray for His spirit to come out of your mouth.
Thanks Bobby, at least I achieved half my goal. As for condemnation, I definitely missed my mark if I came across that way. I often attempt to challenge the statements and/or assumptions I see people comfortable making with uncomfortable viewpoints. Then again, I’m definitely no Craig Groeschel. I do try to step more gently here than I do other places. Especially once I realized that the vast majority of posters are shepherds of one type or another who carry big sticks when it comes to defending their flocks. (grin)
The Hare Krishna services I use to go to in L.A. usually included a full vegetarian spread. A main motivation for going. :)
I have been a Christ follower–and regular church attender–for 20 years. Recently I have, however, began to question not so much whether God exists, but rather, why Christianity is THE way to God/heaven. I have prayed about this, and feel guilty for even questioning my faith, but it continues to trouble me. And every pastor or Bible-study partner that I asked about my questions refers me back to the Bible, which, I am ashamed to admit, I question too (given the fact that it was written and assembled by man).
Why are we right and why is everybody else wrong? I understand that our faith is based on salvation through Jesus Christ. So, please don’t misunderstand my question. I’m really struggling with this. Any books, blogs, or whatever that anyone could refer me to that might be helpful?
BPL,
Thanks for your honesty and your sincere question. Others may know some good resources. My best recommendation is “Case For Christ” by Lee Strobel. I’d be happy to mail you a copy if you get your address to sarah@lifechurch.tv.
I am praying for you as I send this comment. God’s best to you.
BPL,
Please do not feel guilty about sincerely wrestling with faith and the sovereignty of faith. There is a very big distinction between continual, earnest seeking and downright disbelief or dismissiveness. It is much better to wrestle with Christ and faith than to never fully address anything and never know what you believe. Craig did a sermon on fire tested faith during the “Fearless” series about Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego.
I do not know of any passionate, authentic follower of Christ who has not ultimately faced the question or issues you are facing.
I know I certainly have faced the same doubts you have now.
And to an extent, always will. Genuine questions indicate a desire for more, which is not a bad thing. As long as your heart and mind are open to hearing Truth then please do not place the burden of guilt upon your shoulders.
Perhaps God is drawing you closer by making you seek harder or refining your faith or conceptual ideas about Christ.
There will be a book coming out in October entitled, “The Apologetics Study Bible,” which I recommend.
You might have read “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis already and even though it has some weak spots, I believe it is a book written for those who genuinely question the deeper things.
You are in my prayers, right now.
BPL,
wayofthemasterradio.com addresses these issues on a daily basis. Available online or as a podcast two hours a day. I’ve found the program riveting and gives me much food for thought.
“Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” IMHO, C.S.Lewis rocks it in “Mere christianity”. Most libraries carry it. You can read it online at: http://www.lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt
Could it be possible that God initiates the relationship with a non-believer? If a non-believer starts asking questions about God or church or even sharing a difficult season they are going through, that could be God initiating a relationship with them, beginning their journey to becoming a fully devoted follower of Christ. They, of course, don’t see it that way.
We, as believers, should always be looking for where God is at work around us and adjust our life to line up with where HE is working and with His will. We may be the first person in a long line of people that God has placed in the path of this person on their journey to developing a relationship with Christ.
BPL — don’t feel guilty or ashamed about having doubts or questions. If we are all honest, we ALL have doubts and questions from time to time. I am praying for you as well.
I just think about conversations I’m having with friends who ask hard questions like BPL.
I rarely run into a person who doesn’t believe in God.. I’m not sure, but I think Dawkins would even say there is a God, but (and I’m guessing here) he would not attribute personal characteristics to it/him/her.
People I talk with (which is very limited) are asking if God is really loving in a world filled with pain. or What kind of God would say, “I love you more than anything so much I gave my son for you, but if you don’t love me back on my specific conditions, then I’m going to make you burn in hell of all eternity. What kind of father would sacrifice his son, is that divine child abuse. or What kind of God would allow ___________ to happen?
Sometimes these are questions people are asking based on personal experience. Sometimes
they ask questions that are philosophical. Often they are asking questions that are born from a complete disagreement or lack of generosity from the church when it comes to it’s description or understanding of God.
In other words, often the church doesn’t represent God all that well.
Certainly God is bigger than the church, and God is working outside the church to bring about his Kingdom it just that we don’t talk about those things and it’s confusing to folks. Thus we get questions like BPL’s.
BPL,
I’d love to hear your opinion on what you think about the question you are asking. Do you think Jesus is THE only way? Why or why not? Where do you you think the church is going wrong on this?
I’d really love to hear your thoughts.
mark
I have not run into anyone who did not really believe in God but I have run into many who have questions about His character and have questions like the ones mentioned above. This causes them to doubt my belief in the God and Savior of the Bible that I believe in. Although my church has tackled these questions, I don’t think that other churches do very often. Why? Maybe it is because they are afraid to admit that sometimes we struggle with these questions too.
BPL,
All the books listed above are really good tools. The Case For Christ being my favorite. What helped me be more convinced why Jesus is the only way is a class I took studying the different world religions. Sounds like a crazy way to strengthen your faith doesn’t it? But as I studied what each one believed I became more convinced that what I believed was the only way. I definitely would not recommend this to everyone because it can cause doubt for some but it helped me.
FYI- My class was taught by a Christian and we did look at the religions from a Christian world view.
Ok. It’s interesting that BPL is getting a lot of replies from good hearted folks. Is it cool if I say something really bugs me though?
Before I get what bugs me, I want to say thanks to Bobby for bringing up a potentially controversial issue and I appreciate it even more because I know that he is in relationship with folks who are not following Christ. It makes the conversation seem more real to me.
But look, if you only have doubts every once in a while or from “time to time” then I would seriously question how engaged you are in the real world, outside the church walls. First, doubt isn’t the opposite of faith and second, BPL isn’t doubting. He’s questioning the legitimacy of some of the claims the church is making on things Jesus said. these are very different things.
And the way of the master is just flat messed up. I’d use stronger language but it’s not my blog. Way of the Master is abusive, and brow beats people in unreasonable ways in the way of reason.
Since when is it a sin to doubt? Since when it is ok to no longer have to work out your faith with fear and trembling? Since when do we see through the glass clearly?
Doubt is the shadow cast by faith. Doubt is always present in faith. Always. let’s give ourselves permission to not have answers for folks like BPL and ourselves.
“Doubt is the shadow cast by faith. Doubt is always present in faith. Always. let’s give ourselves permission to not have answers for folks like BPL and ourselves.” Fine! Leave me speechless! Actually, I see more faith in Christians when they have those “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” moments than at any other time.
Mark (riddle),
Great comment. Anything that can leave my friend Jimmy speechless is remarkable. (Jimmy, I hope you know that I do love your feedback)
All,
I’ve enjoyed all of the thoughtful responses so far to this post. Your comments make our posts so much better. Thanks.
I am wondering how to interpret the ClickComments on this post. Does it mean people want me to write more about my lunch, more about the topic of people who do not believe God exists, or simply post more since I have not been posting as frequently as normal? I guess that is the disadvantage of ClickComments.
[...] There is a great discussion on how to to engage people who don’t believe in God at all. The comments are all so addressing how we handle doubts and questions about God and faith. I don’t have anything to add here, just think it is worth the read. Does God exist? [...]
This was my first post to any blog ever. I thank each of you so much for responding to my question from this morning. It really means a lot to me–really.
As I sit here with my wife and lots of kiddos in bed, reading all of your great comments, I can’t help but think about how my faith has evolved. I was 12 when I asked Christ to live in me, forgive me, and save me. I felt his calling, believed, and accepted–almost without question. Everything about what I believed seemed so simple. After all, my pastor, youth leader, teachers at my local Christian school, etc., all told me that the Bible is true, should be respected and believed, and that Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. But at some point, fairly recently, the question that I posted this morning made its way into my head.
You know, there really is nothing more scary–I don’t think–than to question what you truly believe at a very fundamental level. It’s not hard to feel alone when you, even for a second, start wondering whether you believe the way you do because of your parents, where you grew up, where you went to church, where you went to school, etc. I hate questioning. I want to believe. I want my faith to be stronger, not weaker.
Anyway, Mark, you asked for my opinion on what I think about the question I asked, and do I think Jesus is THE only way? My answer is: Yes, I do believe, and perhaps it’s that simple. The fact of the matter is that Jesus has been very real to me for a long time now. And that’s why I believe.
Your other question is a very important one: Where do I think the church is going wrong on this? I don’t know. I have more questions than answers. But I do know that some Christians respond to these kinds of questions by questioning whether the asker is even a Christian. The response goes something like: If you had REALLY accepted Christ as your Savior then you wouldn’t doubt or question the fundamentals. This is not helpful. So, I guess my only thought here is that we should tell people–as most of you have done–that it’s okay to ask tough questions. To the extent we struggle with tough questions, and allow God to work in our lives to help us make peace with those questions (and perhaps the lack of answers), then couldn’t that make us better witnesses? After all, how many non-Christians do we all know that ask similar questions?
Great post. Very thought provoking. Does God exist? I think we naturally assume that most people believe in God or some form thereof. I also think we assume “God� means “Jesus� when people use it in secular circles. I’ve seen many Christian’s assume someone is a “believer� if they toss out a generic reference to “god� in a book or in a talk when the “god� they refer to is actually some non-personal “divine being� or “universal creator� that only makes Jesus a wise man rather than God in the flesh. :)
So to get back to my point here… I think we do assume that those who do not attend church regularly probably believe in a “god� but just not in Jesus, hence why we try to witness to them. When I read this post though, I instantly thought more about those within the church than those outside. I think we assume that those who attend church actually believe God exist when the reality may be that some HOPE God exist but they are still not too sure and they are afraid of being singled out if they fess up and admit their struggles. I’ve known some “Christian’s� who have gone through the motions for years and then all the sudden open up and admit that they are facing a crisis of belief and have been for years, they were just to worried about what another brother or sister in faith would think of them to admit it. Maybe for them it becomes more a question of “Does God Care� rather than “Does God Exist� but it could be one in the same.
I could go on but hopefully my point is made. :)
BPL,
I was raised as a church attender and made a decision to be a follower of Christ when i was a freshman in high school. However, when I was in college I had a professor that unknowingly challenged some core things that I believed. I began to question EVERYTHING that I believed and realized that I had all of those beliefs because my parents or youth pastor had told me that I should believe it.
I was left feeling “naked” and in a vulnerable position spiritually since I realized I had no real foundation for what I so easily believed as a high school student. At that point in my life (which seemed scary to me at the time), I realized what “faith” really meant. I could no longer assume or inherit the beliefs of those close to me. I also could not get to the answers I was seeking simply through reason. I had could only get there with faith. Without that…I would most likely share the same point of view that my friend from NYC has.
So…I see the questioning process is a necessary process in helping you establish a strong foundation for what you believe.
“The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?” I once believed I accepted Christ when I was 13. But I was raised to believe in the betrayal of hope. I was raised to be the shadow that made the light of my gods shine bright before men.
“For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.”
If doubt leads to an understanding of your own inability to do the impossible, it can be a valuable thing. If doubt is all you know, all you’ve experienced, it can be a very dark place. If you can do nothing else, at least attempt to turn your face in the direction of the light and look through the links of the chains that bind you. “Anyone who is among the living has hope even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!”
yes….this is the every first thing we must ask but don’t; and the first thing we always assume to be true, but may not be. my son, an electrical engineer and pretty smart guy, has told me that he’s not sure that there is a god. he was raised in church. he’s now married to a great lady, also an electrical engineer, and very “spiritual” in the sense of how that word is defined today…very fuzzy.
before i can have a conversation with them about Jesus, i’ve got to cross that barrier of “God is real”… not easily done. but how could i possibly expect him/her to even think about Jesus when they aren’t even sure there’s a Creator?
start small; start basic; start where they are… pray and understand that it’s God that will call them; not me, not you.
Hello, I don\’t know a lot about the subject matter in this particular post (God exist? at LifeChurch.tv : swerve), but I did enjoy reading this and learned a little bit. Before clicking here I was trying to find out about california community college online course in particular, and I will come back now that I have found you.