Comments on: Which is the better investment?

By: Brett Hawk

Brett Hawk — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:01:40 +0000

Who says money is the only way to help the poor? Throwing money at some company or mission to help the poor, just might actually help the poor. But we must ask ourselves, what is it to be “poor”? Who is “poor”? Is it the people that hold signs begging for money outside busy street corners and at night get picked up by someone just to retreat to their nice comfy home? How much more effective and moving would it be to spend your TIME, yes time folks, to help serve food for those homeless, to volunteer down at a Goodwill, to get to know these people as individuals, not as a stereotypical minority.

By: Chuck Driver

Chuck Driver — Mon, 26 Mar 2007 04:28:51 +0000

It seems to me that most of the scenarios that have imaginarily been played out in this discussion exist in the pro-sign mindset and center around some person that sees the billboard and eventually finds their way to lifechurch.tv.

Although these scenarios involving lifechurch.tv campus experiences, salvations, tithes, and other extremely powerful results directly related to the marketing are quite swell to think about and imagine. I am more concerned with another, more realistic, scenario.

What about the person who sees the billboard and does nothing? This person simply saw the sign, chuckles a bit, and keeps on driving. What about this experience? For every one (1) person who has some radical response the billboard, one would have to assume that thousands more fall into the chuckling driver category.

All this said, I still think there is power to be found in the chuckling driver scenario. The scenario doesn’t include a great tale to tell through the ages, but it does contain hope.

The answer to the question, by the way, is that you can’t seperate the two: people vs. people. How could one say that spending money on people is better than spending money on people?

Hope this helps…

Chuck

By: Adam Hernandez

Adam Hernandez — Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:18:11 +0000

A little off of the topic of this post but you guys should do a “Your Mom goes to lifechurch.tv” billboard

By: Chris Marsden

Chris Marsden — Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:57:02 +0000

When I was in Israel several years ago, I had much the same response looking at the 24 kt Gold pictures in some of the Catholic Churches. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (and more) “wasted” on pictures adorning cathedrals. As already referenced in this thread, the picture of Mary and the oil popped into my head.

The question is not what do we think you should do with the money God has entrusted to you, but what do you think, after prayerful consideration, is the best thing you should do with that money.

Would I “waste” money on a gold depiction of the crucifixion? No

Would I “waste” money on a billboard instead of feeding the poor? maybe.

Should you? That is between you and God. He will hold you accountable.

By: Jim Miller

Jim Miller — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:44:44 +0000

Okay, this is admittedly a drive-by post. I didn’t have time to read all the comments, but I couldn’t help posting.

Has anyone yet mentioned that Judas brought this same argument to Jesus when one of the Marys poured expensive perfume on his feet? Whom did Jesus rebuke?

I get really irritated when people exploit the poor to justify a complaining spirit. Bobby, I’ve told you before how much I appreciate that you don’t take any criticism lightly. I don’t know how you put up with it. I’d have become WAY jaded by now. But you never miss an opportunity for introspection. That is a the very definition of humility, my friend.

For others who may be reading this, I live in OKC. I have been committed to a church that is struggling since before LifeChurch.tv came into existence. Our church is less than two miles from where the new NWOKC campus will be opening soon. I have plenty of opportunity to hear complaints about LifeChurch.tv. In my experience they fall into 2 categories: Jealousy and misinformation. (I can’t believe the number of Christians in this town who are jealous of LifeChurch.tv’s success!)

Where in the Bible are Christians called to complain about each other? One of the wisest comments in the New Testament came from Paul’s old teacher, Gamaliel. He opposed persecution of Christians by the Jewish leaders by saying, “If this is of God, we can’t stop it. If it isn’t, it will fade away anyway.” Perhaps complainers should take this to heart. They who complain about how others spend their money should be just as careful about how they spend their words and their time. Wouldn’t it be better stewardship to expend that energy on growing your own church than on moaning about LifeChurch.tv?

By: Terry G

Terry G — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:05:08 +0000

I have to say I loved all the comments. There are some very interesting perspectives and reasoning behind the answers. But I have to admit I was really drawn to James Mathews comments…succinct and to the point…shame on me but I laughed out loud at the Bono comment. :D

I admit, I agree with the “marketing vs. benevolence” comments. I’ve long believed that the people at LifeChurch.tv are prayerful about their decisions regarding marketing AND benevolence, and I haven’t been proven wrong yet. My apologies if this next comment is out of line, but, I’ve taken the 3 Month Tithe Challenge and haven’t once seen something (like the billboards) and thought Oh Great!! That’s where my tithe is going?!? What a waste!!

I think Gabriel’s comments about well intentioned organizations, was right on the money. Please forgive me if I misquote this but does this ring any bells? “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime” (sic). It wouldn’t bother me in the least if LifeChurch spent it’s entire budget on campaigns like this if it lead ONE person to give his/her life to Christ.

LifeChurch.tv spends too much money on these billboards! Satan

By: steve waite

steve waite — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 01:33:44 +0000

Bobby:
I could be wrong here, but I think you are making Satan very angry with your marketing campaign. We shouldn’t be suprised. My advice is simple: Ignore the evil one and keep listening to your heart.
Agape,
steve

By: Bobby Gruenewald

Bobby Gruenewald — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:59:16 +0000

guys…sorry about the delay in posting your comments. We had a bit of network trouble here at the office today.

Nate…good points. I am the one that bears the responsibility for wasted time on your 2nd point since I was the one that turned it into a discussion. Sorry :)

By: Jim Walton

Jim Walton — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:39:10 +0000

Getting someone who has needs to visit your church is a huge step in the right direction. Then the church can help, plus the person can plug into the church family, serve, be ministered to, grow etc etc.

Don’t we all have needs? Sometimes it food or shelter or electricity, but other times its Spiritual or emotional needs.

Keep up the good work!

By: Gene

Gene — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 20:05:09 +0000

The signs are certainly serving they’re purpose aren’t they? Love them or hate them, you’ll remember them!
I think if Jesus would have worn a shirt that said “I heal on the Sabbath�? people would have had similar reactions…only it might have involved large rocks hurled at high velocities.
The bottom line is salvation. How many people are talking about these billboards? Getting people involved in church drives the resource engine of the church, which in turn, releases more funds, more volunteer power, and more Jesus. To market or not to market isn’t the point, the point is to lead people into growing relationships with Jesus Christ in whatever way possible so that we can release the power of salvation working itself out into the world.
I can’t wait to get to Heaven and see who is there and who is not. I’m sure it will be a surprise on both ends, but I’d love to get there and listen to the salvation stories. I’m sure there’s a couple like “I got a text from a friend that said dude, check out http://www.satanhateslife.com , to I clicked on the link on and thought it looked pretty cool. So I downloaded the message and started listening to it on my phone…on the way home and the message kind of hit me right where I was at. The rest is history.�?

By: Derrick Logan

Derrick Logan — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:44:04 +0000

In John 6, Jesus said “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

If you’re church is effectively pointing people to Christ, is there anything else that has to be said?

By: Nate Neben

Nate Neben — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:17:21 +0000

Ok, so I managed to dodge the desire to post on yesterday’s comments, but here we are again today. Two thoughts:

1) One way to feed ALL those poor is to bring the light of Jesus to every heart possible and through their giving.

God frequently uses multiplication to take care of his tasks - can you say 5 loaves and 2 fish - feeds 5000? - lots left over?

You might think this totally ridiculous, but I serve a God for whom nothing is impossible - What if Bill Gates were converted as a result of one of the signs leading him to Christ and decided his mission was to feed the poor? Where would that leave the argument??

And I may be going out on a limb here, but I’m willing to bet that the ‘newly saved’ are much more ready to be on fire for Christ and give up their full tithe and get enrolled in mission outreach to the destitute, homeless, etc. than are the entrenched, got my space in my favorite pew every Sunday types.

2) While we are arguing about proper stewardship, doesn’t it happen that by posting his or her original dissent, the original poster has now caused all kind of discussion and time to be consumed that might have been better spent in God’s word? What if this were just taken to the Lord in prayer instead? Food for thought.

By: Sam

Sam — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:59:43 +0000

I think it is crazy that people naturally assume that because you do A) you don’t do B). I think many Christians 1. have bad grammar 2. Spend to much time criticizing out of jealousy. How do they know you aren’t helping the poor. Maybe their church would grow if they focused on what Jesus cared about Lost people and followed Job’s example and pray for their friends instead of pointing fingers at people who are supposed to share the same Saviour.

Oh another sign idea based on this guys quote.

It’s Fun Accusing Lifechurch.tv

Satan

By: Lori

Lori — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:52:20 +0000

All great points - When I give money to my “church” I expect the leaders to use it to lead people to become Christ followers. But just because I give money to my church doesn’t mean I am done serving. Just because I write a check, My job is not done. I think that’s where some people miss the boat. They think it’s the “church’s” responsibility to help the poor….And what does it mean to “help the poor”….do we just send money to the local shelters, fill up their food banks, enable them to keep depending on that (someone mentioned that earlier…great point!)

I also think that the comment from this particular “non-liker-of-the-billboards” goes back to an earlier blog post (That’s Not Real, Feb) that talked about understanding a certain situation before we “judge” it or decide it’s useless or wrong. (this person thinks LC is on “tv” so they are obviously unfamiliar with LC) A lot of our negative thoughts towards something come from either not “getting” it or not wanting to understand. There are a LOT of closed minds out there….

Lifechurch definitely pushes the envelope more so than “most” churches - but don’t you think that God “pushed the envelope” back in the day - burning bush, floating axhead, five loaves-two fishes, raising up dead people…..that may have been God’s version of marketing himself…..maybe I’m wrong….

By: Danny

Danny — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:58:53 +0000

Here’s a thought on top of all the great comments that have been given. When someone else is judging what another is doing in the ministry you might just check out what Paul wrote to some friends…

“It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice”

He didn’t get upset at them or their motives just that the word was getting out. To many Christian do more judging than spreading the Good News & Christ Love.

By the way have have worked in inner city ministry for a large organization and have found that while it is a needed ministry it can be very expensive and numbers reached per dollar spent may not always be the most effective use of dollars. Just saying we all need to do what we are called to do.

By: Chad Wright

Chad Wright — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:21:02 +0000

First, I think we have to acknowledge that we can’t help everyone who needs it. We have a finite amount of money to work with. So I think we need to strike a balance between marketing and benevolence, keeping in mind the more marketing we do, the more people we have, the more poor we can help.

By: Nathan

Nathan — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:27:06 +0000

Bobby,
Perhaps you or Craig to talk more about what you’re doing to help the local communities.
All we (and your detractors) hear about is the marketing side of things. Just hearing about that makes LifeChurch.tv seem a bit off, which you’re not really off, you just aren’t ‘marketing’ the other things which aren’t so innovative or unusual.
Perhaps that makes sense…perhaps not…

By: Paul

Paul — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 12:15:52 +0000

It would be interesting to know what church of the person who sent that complaint is doing to help the poor. I wouldn’t be surprised if he/she was in some dying old-line denominational church with 90 members that doesn’t do anything for the poor because they then need every dime in the offering to keep the doors open.

My experience is that people who oppose marketing think of finances as a zero sum game. They think if you spend money on marketing, that means less money for something else. The reality, however, is that if your marketing is effective, the end result should be more people, giving more, which results in more money availble for other areas of ministry including helping the poor.

By: Mike Jones

Mike Jones — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:23:28 +0000

If someone needs help getting from Oklahoma to Texas and you build a highway from Oklahoma to Texas you never got that person to Texas but you helped show them, and many others, the way.

By: Steve

Steve — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:45:10 +0000

Some great comments,

Ryan, I really appreciate your comments - those questions need to be asked, and answered properly. Which they were.

As a professional advertising strategist, When spending thousands of dollars the questions I ask is:
- why will that media channel work, where others won’t?
- what will be the minimum acceptable return on investment?
- can we even measure it our R.O.I. (return on investment)

So in lifechurch.tv’s case:
- why will that media channel work, where others won’t?
- Is the billboard the best way of getting our message across?

- what will be the minimum acceptable return on investment?
- Normally this would be about money spent in response by the consumer, but what is eternity of one person worth? what is two worth? etc

- can we even measure it our R.O.I. (return on investment)
- Do you measure your results by:
- people committing their lives to Christ;
- or perhaps people showing up - where perhaps they never normally would of
- changed perceptions of church
- page impressions on the mini website

In response to another post about ‘turning people off church’. Advertising always turns people on or off about a product. It will never be different in a churches case, whether its a clever billboard, or a badly designed church bulletin - they all say something about the church they are from.

Hope this helps.

What do others think about these questions?

(PS I love spill chackers LOL)